THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
From: yttrx@mutilation.net (.)
Subject: Re: XI degree OTO Questions
Date: 14 Jul 2001 00:08:56 GMT

In alt.magick.serious mika  wrote:
> "." wrote:

>> In alt.magick.serious mika  wrote:
>> > you are approaching the ritual too literally. there's a mystery in the
>> > "transmission", but   crowley's personal method does not have to be the one
>> > and only way for physically carrying out the XI degree ritual.  after all,
>> > the physical process is merely a reflection of the magickal truth that is
>> > transmitted to the initiate.
>>
>> And part of that magical truth is deeply buried in polarized gender
>> identity.  This is not one of those cases where 'a girl can do anything
>> a boy can do!", it is quite plainly not the case here.  There are very
>> important differences in gender, both magickally and mundanely.

> like I said, there must be an equivalent ritualistic process for women, otherwise
> the XI degree initiation is available to men only.  are you saying, specifically,
> that women are not able to be initiated into the XI degree?  

Yes.  Just as a male cannot possibly act as a scarlet woman.

> if that is the nature
> of the OTO degreed process for magickal attainment, fine, but I would like to see
> that explicitly stated.  women and men both should know the requirements and
> limitations of this particular system.

Youre falling into that trap again.

>> > besides, I can't see how someone could insist that this rite could only be
>> > performed by a magician with a semen squirting phallus, without a
>> > corresponding XI degree ritual for those without one, and still expect to be
>> > taken seriously (at least by those who understand the difference between
>> > ritual and magick).
>>
>> Then you do not have enough experience in OTO style magick to know
>> the difference.  It is *very* important to remember that the XI degree
>> is *not* "above" the X degree.  Think of it more as an epilogue.
>>
>> Again, this is not a sexist practice...and anyone who has taken the time
>> and energy to make a batch of the water of life (falsely so-called)
>> knows the difference.

> for a change, I am not claiming sexism (not yet anyway).  I am just asking,
> directly, can there be or can there not be a corresponding ritual for women.  

No, there cannot be a corresponding ritual for women; XI has no possible 
correspondance.  There could, however, be a dual-lingus ritual specifically
by and for women within the OTO construct though, but it would by nessesity
have a completely different name...perhaps XII?  Again, above X, all is commentary,
not aquisition.

> and
> if not, is it then built in to the OTO system of initiation by degrees that
> certain transmissions are available only to men.  and, if that is true, are there
> or are there not certain OTO rites that are available only to women.

No.  And dont forget that the XI was pulled out by the current caliphate anyhow,
it is not a legal OTO degree anymore.  (some say it never was)

> these are very straightforward questions that no one of authority in the OTO has
> responded to directly (to the best of my knowledge).  why has no one answered
> these simple yes-or-no questions?

Because the scenes surrounding them are highly embarrassing to those involved.




-----.

-- 
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and 
its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
goes by the name of London

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From: yttrx@mutilation.net (.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: XI degree OTO Questions
Date: 14 Jul 2001 00:11:48 GMT
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In alt.magick.serious mika  wrote:
> mika wrote:

>> "." wrote:
>>
>> > And part of that magical truth is deeply buried in polarized gender
>> > identity.  This is not one of those cases where 'a girl can do anything
>> > a boy can do!", it is quite plainly not the case here.  There are very
>> > important differences in gender, both magickally and mundanely.
>>
>> like I said, there must be an equivalent ritualistic process for women, otherwise
>> the XI degree initiation is available to men only.  are you saying, specifically,
>> that women are not able to be initiated into the XI degree?  if that is the nature
>> of the OTO degreed process for magickal attainment, fine, but I would like to see
>> that explicitly stated.  women and men both should know the requirements and
>> limitations of this particular system.

> (yes, I'm responding to my own post.  my response above was hasty, I just want to
> clarify:)

> it is true there are mysteries that only men can receive, and some that only women can
> receive.  however, for example:  even in a system such as judaism, which is considered
> by many to be a patriarchical system and which has many practices that exclude women,
> there are also rituals relating to the feminine mysteries that are traditionally
> performed by women (and are considered to only be understood by women). eg the opening
> and closing rites of the sabbath.  along with the practice that there is some
> knowledge only men can recieve effectively is the practice that there is some
> knowledge only women can receive effectively.  however one feels about judaism and its
> rules, both genders participate in exclusionary practices.

Precisely.

> my question is, does the OTO only have practices that exclude women, as it seems with
> the XI degree, or are there rituals that exclude men as well.  

No, there are no rituals that exclude men.

> my understanding so far
> is that the OTO system is solely geared towards men and any inclusion of women is an
> exception to the rules, so to speak.  

Oh not at all.  There wouldnt be an OTO without women.  Women are an absolutely
integral part of the degree system and ritual of the OTO of *every* flavor.

> which is why women can only go so far, until the
> inherent bias of the system becomes significant.

You missed the point again.  XI is *not* above X, it is a side-note, a commentary,
and epilogue.  Ignore the "but its one louder" theory. :)

> I also want to clarify that this is not a judgement of Crowley's work.  he manifested
> his work the ways that he knew how, that were appropriate to him, his life and his
> times.  

Oh, crowely was one of the most mysogenistic people youre bound to run across in
a dozen lifetimes....personally.  But not magickally.




-----.


-- 
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and 
its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
goes by the name of London

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From: yttrx@mutilation.net (.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: XI degree OTO Questions
Date: 14 Jul 2001 06:59:26 GMT
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In alt.magick.serious catherine yronwode  wrote:
> . wrote:
>> 
>> In alt.magick.serious catherine yronwode  wrote:
>> > catherine yronwode wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Josh Geller wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > In article <3B4A088D.568F@luckymojo.com>,
>> >> > catherine yronwode   wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >   ... arguments that the ritual's value is based on the
>> >> > > "transgressive" nature of homosexuality are going to be met with
>> >> > > amused skepticism by me, as i cannot imagine that an openly and
>> >> > > avowedly bisexual man such as Aleister Crowley would have found
>> >> > > a homosexual ritual "transgressive."
>> >> >
>> >> > Can you imagine that he might have found bottoming to someone that
>> >> > he had only and always topped "transgressive"?
>> >>
>> >> (A) It has been stated in alt.magick as "fact" several times that
>> >> Crowley was always a bottom when having sex with men. Is this not
>> >> the case? Does anyone actually know?
>> >>
>> >> (B) Talk of "bottoming" might lead someone to thing that anal
>> >> penetration is involved in the XI degree ritual, but some who have
>> >> posted here recently on the topic have spoken of the rite only in
>> >> terms of fellatio. Which is it -- fellatio or anal sex -- or is it
>> >> both?
>> 
>> > Following up to my own post with a third question:
>> 
>> > (C) Statements have been made in alt.magick at various times that women
>> > cannot participate in this rite -- which might make sense if it involved
>> > anal sex
>> 
>> It doesnt.
>> 
>> > (they have too small a copulatory organ for penetration), but
>> > would NOT necessarily make sense if oral sex were the focus of the
>> > ritual, for many women emit liquid when having an orgasm, and this
>> > so-called "fmeale ejaculate" (no matter what one thinks it is, in
>> > biological terms) could readily fill the waiting mouth of the aspirant.
>> > So... why no women in the XI degree?
>> 
>> For many reasons.  One of the more mundane ones is that women's 
>> orgasms contain physiologically quite different ejaculates.  Ever 
>> eat a cake of light?
>> 
>> Same idea.

> Menstrual blood is not an "ejaculate." 

1. everybody makes em different
2. I used the word ejaculate to cover a wide range of fluids, and left
their mundane name to the mysteries, should anyone reading this have the
urge to follow a certian path.  I fucking hate it when people ruin 
surprises.

> NOTE: For the record: i am not a member of any version of the OTO or any
> OTO-like magical order. What follows is based upon e-mail and usenet
> conversations. 

> During my research into this subject of the abandonment of the XI degree
> rite by the (c)OTO, i have so far been given TRHEE entirely different
> and mutually contradictory descriptions of the major sexual activity of
> the ritual itself. They are:
>     * oral sex (by whom upon whom -- that is, which part was played by
> the candidate and which by the initiator -- was unstated.)

Yes.  Its not called the cocksucker degree for nothing.

>     * anal sex (again, by whom upon whom was unstated.)

Nope, if theyre doin it that way its just for fun.

>     * anal sex performed by the candidate upon the initiator, followed
> by the candidate sucking his own semen out of the initiator's asshole
> and swallowing it. 

Thats just a nasty rumor with no hint of truth, designed to tarnish
the reputations of an individual or two who actually deserve to have 
nice things said about them.  The big secret to the ritual is a variation
on the big secret that got Crowley into the OTO in the first place without
even trying; consult the book of lies for details.

> Now, i'm not squeamish, but it does seem to me that eating baked
> menstrual blood (as in Original Recipe Cakes O' Light) or
> burned-to-ashes-certified-HIV-feee-and-then-baked menstrual blood (as in
> the new, improved (c)OTO brand Cakes O' Light Lite) 

Hahahahaaaa...

> is hardly the "same
> idea" as sucking your very own hot, fresh semen mingled with hot, fresh
> feces right out of your very own initiating lodge-master's possibly
> pin-worm-and-hepatitis-infested asshole.

Its the same premise, magickally.  Though the symbology is reversed (in
a way, dont argue with me here, I understand that its much more complex
than that you bastards), the mechanism is essentially exactly the same.

Still, it comes down to the fact that in XI, according to its meaning,
value, and effect, there can be no substitutions.  It wouldnt invalidate
XI, it would simply make it something else.  




-----.


-- 
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its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
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From: yttrx@mutilation.net (.)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: XI degree OTO Questions
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In alt.magick.serious mika  wrote:
> "." wrote:

>> (mika wrote:) > my understanding so far
>> > is that the OTO system is solely geared towards men and any inclusion of women is an
>> > exception to the rules, so to speak.
>>
>> Oh not at all.  There wouldnt be an OTO without women.  Women are an absolutely
>> integral part of the degree system and ritual of the OTO of *every* flavor.

> ok, so how are women an "absolutely integral part" of the XI degree?

Alright, apon further thought, I've decided to just add one little note:

There *is* a XI ritual in one of the OTO flavors which is thought by more than
a few to be the full reverse of the one that existed in COTO until fairly 
recently...And pre-menopausal woman is absolutely nessesary in that particular
one.

It may be worth noting that thus far the XI discussed has been specifically 
COTO, and not any of the others---some of which vary wildly on this point.




-----.



-- 
Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and 
its filled with people who are filled with shit and it
goes by the name of London