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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi From: yttrx@mutilation.net (.) Subject: Re: XI degree OTO Questions (was: Re: Seeking Gay Magickal Men in Boston, MA Date: 9 Jul 2001 21:08:52 GMT In alt.magick.serious catherine yronwodewrote: > Riley Foster wrote: > >> "catherine yronwode" wrote: >> > Did the O.T.O. really abandon the XIth degree ritual out >> > of homophobia? Or did that degree "never realy exist," as >> > some Thelemites have told me? >> As a gay (former) member of the OTO, I think it was homophobia >> & as for did it "ever exist" Aleister himself wrote that it did. >> It sounds like Kenneth Grant squeamishness to deny it. > This topic has been discussed before in usenet -- and since 1994, when i > first got online, i have been asking about it myself. So far no serious > respeonses have been forthcoming, and so i am asking again. Alright, ill tell you right now. But first, let me say this: I am currently not an active member in any organization which declares itself of the name OTO in any way, shape or form. That said, the information I'm about to post is therefore "hearsay", and I wasnt actually present when the decision was made, and I have not talked to caliph on this subject in any way, shape or form. But I know quite alot of people who have, and very well. Heres the general consensus: Yes, it was dropped because of homophobia, though the excuse of "not a valid ritual lineage" was used. Since that excuse was used, I urge caliph and the rest of the current OTO dipshits who think he's the bees knees (step up billy, you know what the right thing to do is) to study the rest of the current COTO template and ask yourselves precisely what else does not have valid ritual lineage for similar reasons. I cant blame someone for not wanting to suck a little cock. Its a hard initiation. It takes work. It takes alot of psychological preparation and a massive amount of strength to succeed, eh. Its clearly not current COTO material for these reasons. > Did the original Swiss-based Reuss branch of the OTO initiate candidates > in a homosexual XI degree ritual? No. > Do or did any other OTO jurisdictions, contemporary or defunct (e.g. > OTO-Antigua, etc.) initiate candidates in a homosexual XI degree ritual? Yes. > Does the (c)OTO currently initiate candidates with a homosexual XI > degree ritual? No. > If the (c)OTO does not currently initiate candidates with a homosexual > XI degree ritual, did it ever do so (e.g. when Grady McMurtry rather > than William Breeze was head of the order)? Yes. > If the (c)OTO did at one time initiate candidates with a homosexual XI > degree ritual, and does not do so now, when was the ritual terminated > and what reason was given for the termination? It was terminated years ago, by the current Caliph. See above. > If the (c)OTO does not now and never did initiate candidates with a > homosexual XI degree ritual, how do the group's oficial position papers > explain Crowley's writing about this subject? Historical curiosity. Ask bill heidrick. I'm sure he'll try very hard to tell you the truth if hes in the right mood. > In your OTO jurisdiction or others historically known to you is -- or > was -- the Crowleyan XI homosexual ritual only performed by two men (in > keeping with Crowley's interest in penile-centered and spermo-gnostic > sex-magic) or could/can two women participate in the ritual? Women cannot participate directly in XI. However, the graal does play an important role, even if symbolic. > If two women can or could participate in an OTO homosexual XI degree > ritual known to you, please explain how an all-female XI degree OTO > ritual could be justified in light of Crowley's firmly stated belief > that Co-Freemasonry (gender-integrated Masonry) is a sham because women > "cannot" become third degree Freemasons because they have no penis? Its true, women cannot become third degree blue lodge masons, because they have no penis. But note this carefully: this does not mean that women are seen as inferior in spinoff masonic groups (like the OTO), it simply marks a very, very important difference in gender symbology. This is also not to say that you cannot enter other schools of masonry without achieving MM. The OTO appears to have modeled itself (at first, of course not now) after the rites of memphis and mezrim, wherein women can and do participate in all degrees. > (For the record, since the male penis per se is not > employed at all during the ritual of the making of a > third degree Freemason, Crowley was a bit ill-advised > on that one, in my humble oipinion, but that is another > matter, of course.) He was not ill-advised. You'd have to understand quite alot about blue lodge masonry in order to fully comprehend his reasoning. Crowley was 3rd degree blue lodge as well as 33rd scottish rite. His occult organization stance was of course highly influenced by his masonic experience, as intense as it is. > Was Crowley's belief that the XI degree ritual representing > homosexuality should be the *highest* degree of ceremonial sex magick > shared by his OTO mentor Theodor Reuss or was this belief and/or the XI > degree ritual itself something that Crowley originated once he joined > Reuss' OTO? Its not so much that he believed it should be the "highest" degree really, as I see it, I tend to think of the XIth as sort of a sidestep from the basic template. > If you have any well-thought-out personal opinions as to why Crowley > taught that the homosexual XI degree ritual is the *highest* degree of > ceremonial sex magick, See "the book of lies" for details about double-lingus. > i would welcome them as well. Just be aware that > previously-stated arguments that the ritual's value is based on the > "transgressive" nature of homosexuality are going to be met with amused > skepticism by me, as i cannot imagine that an openly and avowedly > bisexual man such as Aleister Crowley would have found a homosexual > ritual "transgressive." Theres much more to that ritual than just cocksucking you know. :) -----. -- Theres a hole in the world like a great black pit and its filled with people who are filled with shit and it goes by the name of London
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