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XI degree OTO Questions

To: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.goetia,alt.magick.serious,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
From: catherine yronwode 
Subject: XI degree OTO Questions (was: Re: Seeking Gay Magickal Men in Boston, MA
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 19:32:29 GMT

Riley Foster wrote:
 
> "catherine yronwode"  wrote:

> >      Did the O.T.O. really abandon the XIth degree ritual out 
> > of homophobia? Or did that degree "never realy exist," as 
> > some Thelemites have told me?

> As a gay (former) member of the OTO, I think it was homophobia
> & as for did it "ever exist" Aleister himself wrote that it did.  
> It sounds like Kenneth Grant squeamishness to deny it.

This topic has been discussed before in usenet -- and since 1994, when i
first got online, i have been asking about it myself. So far no serious
respeonses have been forthcoming, and so i am asking again. 

     (Note: My interest in this subject is based on a desire to 
     know more about Croweyan sex-magick, not because i wish to 
     join the OTO. My position with respect to homosexuality is 
     that it is a natural human variation of gender orientation 
     and should be supported both socially and within religious, 
     fraternal, and hermetic orders. Insofar as the current 
     leadership of the (c)OTO (Caliphate OTO, the jurisdiction 
     with which i am most familiar) does not make its position 
     on these matters known, it has become a subject of rumour 
     and innuendo; hence my occasional airing of the topic.)  

Any and all answers to the any or all of the following questions by
present or past OTO members of any jurisdiction and/or by non-OTO
members who are Thelemites or Crowley scholars would be greatly
appreiated:

Did the original Swiss-based Reuss branch of the OTO initiate candidates
in a homosexual XI degree ritual? 

Do or did any other OTO jurisdictions, contemporary or defunct (e.g.
OTO-Antigua, etc.) initiate candidates in a homosexual XI degree ritual? 

Does the (c)OTO currently initiate candidates with a homosexual XI
degree ritual? 

If the (c)OTO does not currently initiate candidates with a homosexual
XI degree ritual, did it ever do so (e.g. when Grady McMurtry rather
than William Breeze was head of the order)? 

If the (c)OTO did at one time initiate candidates with a homosexual XI
degree ritual, and does not do so now, when was the ritual terminated
and what reason was given for the termination? 

If the (c)OTO does not now and never did initiate candidates with a
homosexual XI degree ritual, how do the group's oficial position papers
explain Crowley's writing about this subject? 

In your OTO jurisdiction or others historically known to you is -- or
was -- the Crowleyan XI homosexual ritual only performed by two men (in
keeping with Crowley's interest in penile-centered and spermo-gnostic
sex-magic) or could/can two women participate in the ritual? 

If two women can or could participate in an OTO homosexual XI degree
ritual known to you, please explain how an all-female XI degree OTO
ritual could be justified in light of Crowley's firmly stated belief
that Co-Freemasonry (gender-integrated Masonry) is a sham because women
"cannot" become third degree Freemasons because they have no penis? 

     (For the record, since the male penis per se is not 
     employed at all during the ritual of the making of a 
     third degree Freemason, Crowley was a bit ill-advised 
     on that one, in my humble oipinion, but that is another 
     matter, of course.) 

Was Crowley's belief that the XI degree ritual representing
homosexuality should be the *highest* degree of ceremonial sex magick
shared by his OTO mentor Theodor Reuss or was this belief and/or the XI
degree ritual itself something that Crowley originated once he joined
Reuss' OTO?

If you have any well-thought-out personal opinions as to why Crowley
taught that the homosexual XI degree ritual is the *highest* degree of
ceremonial sex magick, i would welcome them as well. Just be aware that
previously-stated arguments that the ritual's value is based on the
"transgressive" nature of homosexuality are going to be met with amused
skepticism by me, as i cannot imagine that an openly and avowedly
bisexual man such as Aleister Crowley would have found a homosexual
ritual "transgressive."

Cordially, 

cat yronwode 

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