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ToH Thelemic Elist

To: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan
From: Cavalorn 
Subject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:32:50 +0100

In article <2KM59.358364$724.321403@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com>, Satyr
 writes
>The only rule on the Canon of Saints of which I am aware is that the
>names of female saints are never openly disclosed.

I think you're confusing a rule never to reveal the names of female
members of the Order (see Equinox III no 1, p.200: 'the names of women
members are never divulged') with the reason for the entirely male list
of Saints. 

There are no female Saints in Crowley's version of EGC, because that
Collect refers to the 'Lord of life and joy, that art the might of
man... transmitting knowledge from generation unto generation', i.e. the
semen, and the Saints are those who 'did of old adore thee and manifest
thy glory unto men'. A woman does not have the semen, ergo cannot
manifest its glory.

Not endorsing this piece of Crowleyan theology, btw... just explicating
it. :)

Cav
-- 
Give me a woman who's taken her knocks,
Who's tasted both gutter and stars.
Give me a lady with holes in her socks.
Give me a princess with scars.

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From: Cavalorn 
Newsgroups: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:51:47 +0100
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In article , Satyr
 writes
>I will admit to some latitude of interpretation, but I see no
>inconsistency between my statement and the Manifesto, and, given that a
>large number of the saints are listed as "members" in that same document,
>I should think that rather supports my point. 

There is overlap, but not identity. In any case, one is dealing with
completely mythic ancestry, so it hardly matters whether Crowley was
drawing upon his pool of mythical & historical figures to lend credence
to his Church or his Order. :)

>But, were it worded otherwise, and the names of female saints included, it
>would be inconsistent with the Manifesto, now, wouldn't it? 

One can be a member of the Order without being a Saint of the Church. It
does not follow that because one does not name any female members of the
Order, nor are there any named female Saints, that therefore there are
female Saints who are unnamed members of the Order. There is only a
'commonality of absence', to coin a grotesque term.

>A female saint
>would be, by definition, within the Sanctuary of the Gnosis, and
>therefore, their name could not be divulged.

Going by the description within the Collect itself of what the Saints
are, a female Saint would be an impossibility. 'Present, potent,
puissant and _paternal_.'

>> Not endorsing this piece of Crowleyan theology, btw... just explicating
>> it. :)
>
>By what authority?

You don't need to see my authority.

Cav
-- 
Give me a woman who's taken her knocks,
Who's tasted both gutter and stars.
Give me a lady with holes in her socks.
Give me a princess with scars.

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From: Cavalorn 
Newsgroups: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:11:09 +0100
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In article , Satyr
 writes
>I can see how such a view might arise. Much is said concerning the OTO and
>the EGC, but precious little by those in a position to speak with some
>reasonable semblance of authority. Anyone can pick up the Equinox, or a
>similar text, read what was written, and easily fool the uninitiated. }:-)

Ah, so Fu-Hsi was really a member of the founding assemblies
constituting the Order, then.

Some of the most misguided and inaccurate commentaries upon the Mass
that I have ever seen have come from those whose 'authority' ought to
have lent some degree of consistency or plausibility to their
extrapolations. I refer you to the ramblings of 'Sabazius'.

One body of a certain recension even thought that 'thumb between index
and medius' meant 'thumb between penis and anus', bless 'em.

>I believe you should rethink your logic a bit. This statement, even if
>true, isn't remotely relevant to your argument.

Let me explain it to you again.

Female 'members' aren't named.
Females aren't eligible for Sainthood.
It does not follow that an apparent absence of female Saints is down to
a prescription against naming female members.

Got it now? :)

>The "members" that are named in the Manifesto could not possibly be
>"members" in the sense you are attempting to use the word. Obviously, a
>moment's reflection will demonstrate that something else is here implied.

You completely underestimate the suspension of disbelief which proto-
Masonic bodies at the start of the last century required from their
potential members. The Manifesto really does ask you to believe that
some Seekrit Knowledge has been transmitted through history from the
persons named. Such claims were extremely common. It is not a metaphor.

>Is the text of the Collect itself your only source of information? It
>would seem so. 

Far from it. :) Have a look at the thelema93 list archives, or the
Thelema community on LJ, if you want some credentials.

>You forget that you speak of what is, after a fashion, a
>living tradition. 

And you forget that those who purport to possess the keys to
comprehension of many a Crowleyan document are among the most bamboozled
and ignorant. I cite Sr. Meral's completely vapid commentary on the
Mass, for one. Many of those who _do_ have a clue what it's all about
aren't prepared to say so, because some of the doctrines are pretty
unpalatable to modern ears, and besides everyone's far too used to
putting Masses on and enjoying them.

The tradition is not only living, it's suffering from amnesia. Part of
the reason that the situation is the way it is is the ready availability
of the text of the Mass. It is not necessary to understand it in order
to perform it. Because of this, layers of accreted local interpretation
have built up. The original meaning as determined by Crowley is mostly
buried.

I imagine your respect for practitioners of the Mass who you know
personally is blinding you to the original nature of the Mass itself.

>Again, the text of the Collect is in no way inconsistent
>with my previous statements.

You still don't seem to understand what the Saints in the Mass are, nor
why there should be no women among them.

Have a free clue. 

'Certain secret formulae of the Mass are communicated to the PRIEST at
HIS ordination.'

'The PRIESTESS. Should be Virgo Intacta or specially dedicated to the
service of the Great Order.'

It is only the Priest whose ritual preparation & initiation count for
anything. The Priestess is seen merely as a reliable vessel, whose
hermetic integrity is the issue.

Go and read De Natura Deorum, for a start. If you really want the whole
Mass explained to you, I'll do it; but I doubt you'll like it.

Whatever individual practitioners may have brought to the offices in
question (which is a considerable amount) the fact remains that they
were created by AC to express and perpetuate certain doctrines,
concerning which you seem to be as clueless as any.

Ah, well. There's none so blind.

Cav
-- 
Give me a woman who's taken her knocks,
Who's tasted both gutter and stars.
Give me a lady with holes in her socks.
Give me a princess with scars.

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