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To: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan From: CavalornSubject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:32:50 +0100 In article <2KM59.358364$724.321403@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com>, Satyr writes >The only rule on the Canon of Saints of which I am aware is that the >names of female saints are never openly disclosed. I think you're confusing a rule never to reveal the names of female members of the Order (see Equinox III no 1, p.200: 'the names of women members are never divulged') with the reason for the entirely male list of Saints. There are no female Saints in Crowley's version of EGC, because that Collect refers to the 'Lord of life and joy, that art the might of man... transmitting knowledge from generation unto generation', i.e. the semen, and the Saints are those who 'did of old adore thee and manifest thy glory unto men'. A woman does not have the semen, ergo cannot manifest its glory. Not endorsing this piece of Crowleyan theology, btw... just explicating it. :) Cav -- Give me a woman who's taken her knocks, Who's tasted both gutter and stars. Give me a lady with holes in her socks. Give me a princess with scars. Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!top-hat.demon.co.uk!newaeonbooks.demon.co.uk!cavalorn From: Cavalorn Newsgroups: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan Subject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:51:47 +0100 Message-ID: <8ERjimATm9V9EwzW@newaeonbooks.demon.co.uk> References: <7n3rfAAjLvV9IwoE@ty-gath.demon.co.uk> <2KM59.358364$724.321403@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: top-hat.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: top-hat.demon.co.uk:194.222.89.5 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1029168102 nnrp-13:15367 NO-IDENT top-hat.demon.co.uk:194.222.89.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 S Lines: 42 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.gothic:745832 alt.magick:313055 alt.pagan:302742 In article , Satyr writes >I will admit to some latitude of interpretation, but I see no >inconsistency between my statement and the Manifesto, and, given that a >large number of the saints are listed as "members" in that same document, >I should think that rather supports my point. There is overlap, but not identity. In any case, one is dealing with completely mythic ancestry, so it hardly matters whether Crowley was drawing upon his pool of mythical & historical figures to lend credence to his Church or his Order. :) >But, were it worded otherwise, and the names of female saints included, it >would be inconsistent with the Manifesto, now, wouldn't it? One can be a member of the Order without being a Saint of the Church. It does not follow that because one does not name any female members of the Order, nor are there any named female Saints, that therefore there are female Saints who are unnamed members of the Order. There is only a 'commonality of absence', to coin a grotesque term. >A female saint >would be, by definition, within the Sanctuary of the Gnosis, and >therefore, their name could not be divulged. Going by the description within the Collect itself of what the Saints are, a female Saint would be an impossibility. 'Present, potent, puissant and _paternal_.' >> Not endorsing this piece of Crowleyan theology, btw... just explicating >> it. :) > >By what authority? You don't need to see my authority. Cav -- Give me a woman who's taken her knocks, Who's tasted both gutter and stars. Give me a lady with holes in her socks. Give me a princess with scars. Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!HSNX.atgi.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!top-hat.demon.co.uk!newaeonbooks.demon.co.uk!cavalorn From: Cavalorn Newsgroups: alt.gothic,alt.magick,alt.pagan Subject: Re: ToH Thelemic Elist Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:11:09 +0100 Message-ID: References: <7n3rfAAjLvV9IwoE@ty-gath.demon.co.uk> <2KM59.358364$724.321403@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com> <8ERjimATm9V9EwzW@newaeonbooks.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: top-hat.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: top-hat.demon.co.uk:194.222.89.5 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1029175850 nnrp-14:9959 NO-IDENT top-hat.demon.co.uk:194.222.89.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 S Lines: 101 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.gothic:745844 alt.magick:313072 alt.pagan:302748 In article , Satyr writes >I can see how such a view might arise. Much is said concerning the OTO and >the EGC, but precious little by those in a position to speak with some >reasonable semblance of authority. Anyone can pick up the Equinox, or a >similar text, read what was written, and easily fool the uninitiated. }:-) Ah, so Fu-Hsi was really a member of the founding assemblies constituting the Order, then. Some of the most misguided and inaccurate commentaries upon the Mass that I have ever seen have come from those whose 'authority' ought to have lent some degree of consistency or plausibility to their extrapolations. I refer you to the ramblings of 'Sabazius'. One body of a certain recension even thought that 'thumb between index and medius' meant 'thumb between penis and anus', bless 'em. >I believe you should rethink your logic a bit. This statement, even if >true, isn't remotely relevant to your argument. Let me explain it to you again. Female 'members' aren't named. Females aren't eligible for Sainthood. It does not follow that an apparent absence of female Saints is down to a prescription against naming female members. Got it now? :) >The "members" that are named in the Manifesto could not possibly be >"members" in the sense you are attempting to use the word. Obviously, a >moment's reflection will demonstrate that something else is here implied. You completely underestimate the suspension of disbelief which proto- Masonic bodies at the start of the last century required from their potential members. The Manifesto really does ask you to believe that some Seekrit Knowledge has been transmitted through history from the persons named. Such claims were extremely common. It is not a metaphor. >Is the text of the Collect itself your only source of information? It >would seem so. Far from it. :) Have a look at the thelema93 list archives, or the Thelema community on LJ, if you want some credentials. >You forget that you speak of what is, after a fashion, a >living tradition. And you forget that those who purport to possess the keys to comprehension of many a Crowleyan document are among the most bamboozled and ignorant. I cite Sr. Meral's completely vapid commentary on the Mass, for one. Many of those who _do_ have a clue what it's all about aren't prepared to say so, because some of the doctrines are pretty unpalatable to modern ears, and besides everyone's far too used to putting Masses on and enjoying them. The tradition is not only living, it's suffering from amnesia. Part of the reason that the situation is the way it is is the ready availability of the text of the Mass. It is not necessary to understand it in order to perform it. Because of this, layers of accreted local interpretation have built up. The original meaning as determined by Crowley is mostly buried. I imagine your respect for practitioners of the Mass who you know personally is blinding you to the original nature of the Mass itself. >Again, the text of the Collect is in no way inconsistent >with my previous statements. You still don't seem to understand what the Saints in the Mass are, nor why there should be no women among them. Have a free clue. 'Certain secret formulae of the Mass are communicated to the PRIEST at HIS ordination.' 'The PRIESTESS. Should be Virgo Intacta or specially dedicated to the service of the Great Order.' It is only the Priest whose ritual preparation & initiation count for anything. The Priestess is seen merely as a reliable vessel, whose hermetic integrity is the issue. Go and read De Natura Deorum, for a start. If you really want the whole Mass explained to you, I'll do it; but I doubt you'll like it. Whatever individual practitioners may have brought to the offices in question (which is a considerable amount) the fact remains that they were created by AC to express and perpetuate certain doctrines, concerning which you seem to be as clueless as any. Ah, well. There's none so blind. Cav -- Give me a woman who's taken her knocks, Who's tasted both gutter and stars. Give me a lady with holes in her socks. Give me a princess with scars.
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