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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.order
From: heidrick@well.com (Bill Heidrick)
Subject: Re: Bill Breeze expelled.. well kinda..
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:53:58 GMT

93,

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:53:39 -0400, Concerned Thelemite
 wrote:

>>OTO is a religious entity, although members below VIIth need not
>>committ to that as their personal religious affiliation in all cases.
>>The fraternal/sororital aspect of OTO may therefore not be within your
>>experience.
>
>The OTO has always been up ,and until the taking of control by Breeze,
>a FRATERNAL organization. The religious aspect of the order is the
>EGC. 

You are confusing several things.  OTO became a fully religious entity
under Crowley.  It was incorporated in California under McMurtry,
pursuant to Crowley's direction but long after the time set for that
-- since Germer only started the movement to incorporation and failed
to follow through.  In the early 1980's OTO formally filed as a
religious entity, also under McMurtry.  OTO is both religious and
fraternal.  The EGC presents one aspect of the religious character of
OTO, the initiations themselves are another and there are many more.
H.B. did not introduce the religious character of OTO.  Papus brought
it in, Reuss endorsed it, Crowley completed it,  McMurtry made formal
record of it and H.B. continued it in OTO as he found it.

>Per YOUR words Mr. Heidrick:
>
> HEIDRICK: You missed my observation. My observation is that this is a
>    problem. There should be something in Thelema, now I'm branching
>out a bit, like there is in every other religion and philosophy. There
>is a core, which is an Order. There is a fundamental outreach, which
>is free. And the E.G.C. is free.

That was a reference to the separate incorporation of a form of EGC
outside OTO membership.  The EGC within OTO continued intact, but a
separate EGC was incorporated.  The OHO/Caliph of OTO and the
Patriarch of that separate manifestation of EGC were required to be
the same in the Articles and Bylaws of the two otherwise separate
corporations.  The intent was to provide a Thelemic religious access,
including ordinations, that did not involve joining OTO and paying
dues.  The separate EGC corporation failed for lack of support by the
end of the 1980's e.v.  Later than the quote, I tried to keep interest
up in that.

>I personally take offense to this:
>>Look like your words to me, and rather disjunct in some instances to
>>the facts and the usage. 
>
>No they are not MY words at all. Those "words" come directly from the
>OTO Newsletter dated May 1979, copywritten by Grady....the original of
>which I have in my possession. 

Tough.  Words alone are not the unique possession of anyone living,
being the noises of significance in the language.  You can try or fail
to use them in a variety of ways.  The same is true of combinations of
words, be they sentences or larger texts.  If you fail to understand
what is written and shuffle it into novel contexts or interpretations,
that's "your words," not the original intent of the author or authors,
and your error when things go cock-a-loop, not theirs.  :-)

>First of all you are severly incorrect. If a member doesn't pay their
>dues, they are contacted and many times other Brothers will come forth
>and pay dues for the aforementioned Brothers.

Same in OTO.

>fraternity..... There are NO excluded organizations.

Talk to the United Grand Lodge of England about that.  There is a list
of such.  If you are a Mason, you need to review.  OTO changed the
forms of the rituals and the claims of OTO toward the end of Reuss'
life to avoid being labeled irregular or clandestine, since those
characteristics would otherwise have resulted in prohibitions on
Masons against joining OTO.  Reuss applied to have OTO recognized as
Masonic in 1917 e.v., was turned down and made these changes by 1920
to avoid such trouble.  In the 1919 e.v. Blue Equinox, there is a list
of dues and fees for OTO.  That is a revision.  The original proof
copy included cross membership rules whereby initiated Masons could
join at particular OTO degrees by simply paying dues, since the
contention was that the OTO and Masonic initiations were the same at
such matching points.  Because of this problem and to avoid
blacklisting by Masonry, that list was changed in the final
publication copy to exclude cross membership exceptions.  None of that
would have been done, except for this matter that you deny to be true.
To avoid being banned and other, related problems, OTO ceased to claim
to make or raise Masons and also altered the initiation rituals to
prevent infringement on Masonry.  That incidentally afforded the
opportunity for Crowley to rewrite those rituals into Thelemic
religious context.  Landmarks of Masonry were abandoned in that
process, most notably the VSL became limited in OTO to Liber AL only.

It's interesting.  This problem of potential banning became a
proximate cause for OTO becoming a religious entity.  The gods move in
mysterious ways....

>>C.L.Reese (Ebony) never had such an experience,,
>>being on good report until he passed away
>
>That is a bold faced lie.. 

No, it's not.  Ebony had problems with OTO and OTO with him, but they
never rose to the level you were discussing. 

>edict to forbid Chaz's taking of  prednisone
>(which was a key factor in keeping him well) during any OTO gathering
>or function?....

Because he could not function in such a context owing to the side
effects of the medication, Ebony was asked not to go to such things
when he had to take the medication.   You have distorted both the
nature of the request and the origin of it.  This may be why you
consider me to be spinning, since one tends to see ones own faults in
others.  :-)

Just when I thought you had exhausted the subject, you come up with
yet more factual error.  However, you are increasing the rpm's and the
content is getting less and less.

I contracted my reply, but I suppose this will have to fade out rather
than come to an abrupt stop.  There are some historically good fiddly
bits still coming out.  I regret that you seem to feel the need for
hostility rather than open discussion.  Even so, there may be some
people here interested in how these things develop and how they
function.  This really is more the sort of thing that belongs on
alt.magick.order than on alt.magick itself.   At least that's why Josh
created the other newsgroup.

93 93/93
Bill