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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan.magick
From: 333 
Subject: Thelemite Religion? O My Chosen!
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:49:04 GMT

POSTS ON THELEMIST RELIGION
----------------------------
Orig-To: thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com [1]
  Orig-Subjects: Clergy, Thelema, and Thelemist Religion, O My Chosen! [1]
                 Priestless Cookie Consumption??? O My Chosen! [2]
                 Nu Aeon Improvements or Old Aeon Problems? [3]


50030630 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006

#> If we believe that all are equal before God, 

belief smelief. why make this an axiom? what's a God? you really
think people have the same ideas about this critter? I don't.

ok, presume for the sake of argument that we do. the Thelemists 
do NOT believe this crap. look how their scripture prattles on
about 'O My Chosen!' this and 'O My Chosen!' that. just like
the Jews, Christians and Muslims, the Thelemists want to be
the Special People of the God/dess who favours 'em. make no
mistake!

#> why have a Priest? 

to lead the Herd, O My Chosen! Priests are needed to officiate
the Sacred Rites. who else will specialize in the ceremonies
that perform symbolism and mysteries upon mysteries? who else
will fabricate the Special Bloody Cookies that obsessed such
notables as Simon Magus?

#> Shouldn't all human beings be priests? 

not if they don't want to. the Slaves Shall Serve, O My Chosen!

#> Why have Bishops? 

to keep the clergy from fighting amongst themselves about matters
practical and congregatory!

#> If we believe that each individual should make up their own mind 
#> about looking at scripture 

Crowleyans add that this is only true with reference to the expression
of the Prophet Crowley and his writ on the Evul Book's content. do not
speak of this Evul Book's interpretation lest ye be branded some kind
of Pestilencial Centre!

#> and spiritual values, 

which ones? there are at least three sets apparent within.

#> why do we need a Church hierarchy of any kind? 

so as to practically compete with the Christians, O My Chosen!

#> The Quakers have a system that matches their beliefs. Do we 
#> have a system that matches our own?

Thelemites need no system. we make our own way. you want some
kind of loose association of religion to steer you by the nose?
fabricate it! lead another Herd unto their emancipation, O My...

#      A good point. I can see a very circumscribed role for Priests, 
# Priestesses & Bishops as those who specialize in the performance of 
# the Gnostic Mass & the instruction of those who perform it. 

religious ritual specialists. sensible. 

# It seems 
# to me -- and maybe it's more appearance than fact -- that the EGC is 
# trying to become more like a traditional mainstream church in order 
# to become more "respectable" rather than basing their roles and 
# functions on any kind of core Thelemic values (which as you indicate 
# are far from well defined). 

do they claim to be Thelemic? scrutinize this carefully. if they do,
what do they mean by this except adhering to the Master Crowley and
the dictates of his follower-Herd? is *that* Thelema, O My Chosen?

# It's as if the core value the Church is 
# based on is a reluctance to establish any kind of unifying ideology, 
# while supporting an authority structure & outer forms that only make 
# sense when there's a unifying ideology to support, protect & 
# transmit. 

you sure about that? look at the Creed, O My Chosen! it is well-worn
and purports to knowledges crude and Bestial.

# I'm particularly loath to accept notions such as "pastoral 
# counseling" and "ministry" from a church that has no real doctrine as 
# such, not to mention no real training programs, seminaries, etc. 

perhaps the lack of theological and moral integrity hamstrings the
community as well as the religious body by making of its actions a
babble of contending forces. maybe *this* is why the Quakers are so
much more adroit than the Thelemists, O My Chosen!

# Not that such services would be inherently better or more defensible 
# if there were such ideologies and institutions backing them up, 
# but it would at least ring less hollow. 

the Herd would be less inclined to whine and quiver in anxiety.
 
# 93 93/93

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~Subject: Priestless Cookie Consumption??? O My Chosen! [2]

50030630 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006

# If you believe that everyone's opinion about the most essential 
# spiritual issues is just as meaningful as anyone else's opinion, 

I'll go with you on that for the nonce.

# you do not need priests and bishops. 

only if opinion is what makes priests and bishops important.
if they are important for some kind of functional reason,
such as performing the Sacred Rites by which we can keep to
our Covenant, or Consume the Cosmic Medicine by which we are
made Thelemite, then they are very important indeed, O My Chosen!

# The Quakers believe this. 

sure, but they had a Fox as their forefather. :>

# and because they believe this, have no priests and bishops. 

their belief extends somewhat beyond this, into a disbelief
in the necessity of officiating sacraments, right? i.e. do
individual Quakers do communion in their homes or in groves?

# We are 
# conflicted, it seems, because we want a structure and a hierarchy, 

some do. why not have one of these for those who want it? 
the Slaves Shall Serve, O My Chosen!

# yet at the same time have individualistic beliefs that deny this 
# structure any sort of power or reasonable basis for its authority. 

untrue, untrue! if anyone can do anything, then some can specialize.

# The Quakers do not recognize any human being as anyone 
# else's "spiritual superior" 

as a group I can confirm this, having sat with Quakers in what
are called 'Silent Meetings' before. it was stupendous! and yet
there are more than one kind of Quaker and Meeting. some hold
their meetings like Baptists, for example. one might compare
the Baptists more fruitfully than the Quakers to the Thelemists
who enjoy thinking of egalitarian delights.

# and their system reflects that belief. 

what's the worship as described by Quakers? to whom does the
congregation pray, O My Chosen?! to what Nuit does the 
congregation rejoice and inflame thyself? where is the
fervent acceptance of the Holy Sacrament in Quakerism?

# Why do we have superiors if our basic beliefs mimic the Quakers? 

but do they really? I think Quakers are more aligned than the
thoughts and beliefs of Thelemists.

# Much of the Thelemic community appears to me to be like Quakers 
# stuck in a Roman Catholic structure. 

bias. why 'stuck in'? why not 'rectifying'?

# Until the structure reflects the real beliefs of its members, 

you go ahead and try to get agreement on this in Thelemistville.

# it cannot hope to accomplish anything and its members are 
# going to be unhappy and frustrated with it.

except those who want to be part of the People, O My Chosen!
now put your hands above your head and repeat after me....
 
# ...The EGC/OTO ....  is too conflicted to be able to 
# offer a consistent position that makes sense and is coherent....

positions are unimportant where religions are concerned.
that important part is the emancipation of the People!
strive not to rectify a solid confederation of belief,
but instead unite in fervent prayer the People solid in
their communion and consumption of the Bloody Cookies!!

To Me! To Me!!
 
# 93s

  E6s

   3 3s 
===========================

~Subject: Nu Aeon Improvements or Old Aeon Problems? [3]

50030701 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006

thank you very much for bringing this up. excellent topic!

> I didn't mean to convey that. For the record, I'm not a Quaker 
> because I do not like their approach and because, most of the time, 
> they drive me screaming up the wall in person. 

what is it about them that drives you up the wall? 
how is it that the Thelemists avoid this wall-driving?

> That being said, I 
> admire what they accomplish and I think they are useful for those in 
> Thelemic communities to look at due to the features that they share 
> with us in some areas.

aren't Baptists better, like I said?
 
> Part of the reason I like to examine them in the light of Thelema is 
> that I was raised as a Quaker and I think that I learned 
> some "Thelemic" approaches from Quaker perspectives. They value 
> individuals and are very tolerant. 

apparently this varies in every religion. the more cultish the worse
it becomes for deviants (who must have a stronger will to make the
deviation fly in such contexts).

> They believe that looking at scripture is up to the individual. 

why have "scripure" at all? what will be selected for it and why?

> And they have structures and 
> organizations and things the Thelemic communities say they want but 
> do not have. 

is it envy for Old Aeon toys? or a desire to revivify them into some
Novel Aeon Body like what Crowley thought he was doing by bringing
the (c)OTO into line with his scripture? look how such an alignment
fragmented the OTO over it, dividing the Lawbook-haves from the
Lawbook-havenots.

> Given all of this, can we learn from Quakers (and even 
> other religious groups) without wanting to be "just like them"?

only without primarily accepting their premises (e.g. scripture).
why accept the premises at all? what is 'Thelema religion'? 
how can we tell when it starts to become "Old Aeon reduxs"?

> In addition, the OTO started as an "Academia Masonica." 

I thought it started as a girlie-show faux-tantrism, hiring playgirls
to come and dance at "rituals" put on by orientalists. didn't they
make some kind of claim to being like Brotherhood Lite?

> Why don't we 
> use our Occult abilities and knowledge to learn from other groups 
> (not just the Quakers) and religious communities to make our own 
> better? 

because we are unsure what to learn and what to throw away, O My Chosen!

> If we are able to do this, wouldn't this make us 
> more "unique"? 

sufficient uniqueness equates to disposability and quirky perversion.

> There is no reason to re-invent the wheel if we have 
> the ability to learn from those around us. 

here we agree. the issue then becomes whether the wheel-invention
is something we need, or is better left behind in the Nu Aeon (tm).

> When people attack the 
> Christian churches in a superficial way, they may be ignoring things 
> about them that we can use to make our own thing better.

or aren't going deep enough and rooting out the whole religion thing
completely from what should be more advanced scientific systems. 

> 93s

E6s!
 
333

END