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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.sex,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.religion.sexuality
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Various: Thelemic Sex
Date: 7 Jan 1998 21:33:33 -0800

---------------------------------

~From: "Fr.'. Anastasios" 
93.
I don't know who wrote what.

>Whereas I can see a distinction between the penetrator and the
>penetratee, so to speak, I am curious as to why you consider being 
>penetrated to be "passive."  It could easily be seen as "active" by 
>viewing it as *enveloping* and being enveloped.

>The idea of the vagina as being active is hardly a modern one; the 
>fear of the vagina dentata clearly is a non-passive view of the 
>vagina.

It is also unrealistic and misogynist.  Are you sure those are the
values you want to invoke to make your point?


> > I admit, I limited myself when I said the best book on feminism was
> > Liber AL, and I still hold that position because Liber AL vel Legis
> > empowers the woman to take up her sword beside the man and FIGHT for
> > what is hers!
> 
> I agree that telling woman to take up her sword and fight for her
> rights is a good idea. OTOH, I feel that Crowley's conception of what
> a woman should fight for (and what the ideal woman was) was limited
> to say the least.

Fortunately for all of us, Crowley's concept of woman and Liber AL's
were very different things, he being a flawed human being and all.

> > The woman is to become the whore of Babalon, the Scarlet Woman!
> 
> This is the part I find limiting--what if the woman wants to become
> something else and not Babalon?
 
IMO, any woman who is hot on the trail of her own Will is manifesting
the influence of Babalon.  Crowley and the Holy Books characterized her
in a very sexual aspect because her sexuality was (and is) the way in
which woman is subjugated most strongly.  It is woman's sex that the
prevailing culture wishes to control.
The point made everywhere is not simply that Babalon has *lots* of sex,
but that she does it "where, when, and with whom" she will.

> So what you are saying is that the Thelemic ideal of womanhood is a
> woman whose sexual relationships are with men? What about those whose
> sexual relationships are with women or with no one at all?

I don't think there is any evidence in Thelemic literature (i.e.Crowley,
the Holy Books, etc.) that precludes or devalues same-sex relations. 
IMHO, the limitations inherent in both heterosexuality and homosexuality
represents a deficit of experience that may be valuable to a broader
view of the universe.  If a straight man knew what it was like to look
up at a guy huffing and puffing and fiddling about clumsily trying to
get it in (or up) all the while trying to remain sexy and dignified, he
might understand the smile of the Mona Lisa.  Likewise, if a straight
woman could know the emergent impulse to embrace (or grab) and the drive
to penetrate that occurs when encountering delicious curves, beautifully
formed breasts, and the fragrance of a woman, she may grasp the point
(as it were) of Pan.


> > The Babalonic woman will not allow herself to be trampled upon. 

I would have said "Thelemic woman."


> Yes, but in Crowley's case, he only wanted women to go out and enjoy
> sex with men
Who cares what Crowley wanted?  He's dead and Thelema is ours.
Scratch where it itches shall be the whole of the Law!

========================================================

~From: Svedeka@aol.com

On Babalon and the working of the female formula:

     Babalon yeilds herself to everything and by interpenetration with it
understands.  "Thy weakness hath subdued their strength"--the receptive
formula may be passive but it is hardly submissive.

     Now, clearly, Crowley had his shortcomings when it came to applying the
magical formulae to women.  This does not mean that the seeds are not planted
within the existing formulae for us to try to develop.


---From the 1980 record of Meithras XIth degree:
     Let us examine how a woman would operate (being an Adept and member of)
the ninth degree technique.  Obviously from the papers left to us by Crowley,
the entire matter would seem to rest with the "Lion."  For a Priestess to
operate the secret, she must so be able to direct the dispostion of the
"Lion" that he--knowingly or not--incarnates her desired Object.  Thus
perhaps the method would be something like the fashioning of a vessel that
only the desired sort of "light" may then enter.  I leave this important
question for the female membersof our Order to elucidate!

Say we take up this idea of "fashioning a vessel," and combine this with
Crowley's phrase about Babalon from the Vision and the Voice, "with the
breath of her kisses hath she fermented it."  The "Lion" charges the elixir
with his will and the woman can fashion a vessel such that only an elixir
with a specific charge may take root and flourish there.  Then she should act
on it, ferment it according to her will.  Within this carefully shaped
vessel, the co-mingled fluids may react and change their original nature. 

                              ---Svedeka       
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