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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.thelema,alt.magick.order
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Various: Thelema and Tantra
Date: 23 Dec 1997 22:17:19 -0800

rose.dawn@ouroboros.org:

 > From: bry-guy@IX.NETCOM.COM
  
 > A very interesting point, and I do want to do some research into the 
 > Eastern Tantras someday.
  
I'd highly recommend that; of course, yogathangz have been my own main focus
since long before I'd even *heard* of Thelema or O.T.O., much less initiated,
so I'll admit to being biased. However, while what you describe below as
'western tantra,' valuable as it may be, is certainly different and not
necessarily less valid therefore, IMHO it's important to research the bases of
the theories & practices to the extent one is able. Besides, there's a lotta
leaping laughter, delicious languour, force & fire to be found in the original
Sacred Texts, and some surprising schtuff to be gained from even the most
laborious transliteration/translation--stereotype-busters, as well as things
*I* personally believe have been mistranslated--and the thrill of discovery is
fun, even if occasionally not 'prophet-able.'  ;>
  

 > Just to share with you some info on how I came to this conclusion.  I 
 > recall, and I'm not sure where I read this, but I believe it was in 
 > Crowley's own words, that he had to do some reasearch into A & P to further 
> explore and refine the Tantra of the O.T.O. (a distinctly Western Tantra, 
 > from what little I understand of it).  Also, from the last edition of the 
 > O.T.O. newletter (from the mid to late 70's), there is a letter that ) 
 > addresses the physical aspects of the O.T.O. tantra rather bluntly, 
 > describing three different types of male excretion (or lack thereof) that 
 > can be used magickally.  I have not seen a lot in reference to the female 
 > sexual secretion,although there's not a lot in the anatomy to significantly 
> change the make-up of menses.  As the Mass is supposed to house these 
 > secrets, consideration of the O.T.O. Tantra is important.
  
Well, I've done some research into A&P myself, in my training as a hatha
instructor, my training in Saiva Tantra during my actual _guru/sisya_ formal
relationship days, and on my own, kinda-sorta, since I have a neurological
condition  which
has FX on human sexuality. I plunged on in, for my own benefit, & because I'm a
starry-eyed kinda grrl who wanted to "save" other "sufferers" from lack of
transcendent sex , so I was reading the prof journals & research for a
while, and in fact, *was* able to offer some assistance as a volunteer for a
couple different agencies dealing w/disabled folx, which was extremely
gratifying. Ok, that was a real meander--point being, I'm not *completely*
ignorant on the matters at hand my own badSelf.  ;>
  
I recall some translations of Karl Kellner's writings on yoga & tantra in one
of the _Magical Link_s from--hmm, it'd be a while back now--and Papa Karl I
esteem as someone who knew his stuff, whether the stories of his initiations
into Tantric schools are apocryphal or not. Kellner focused much more than
Crowley on female secretions and roles in tantric or tantric-style sexuality, &
his writings are more in accord with my own research.
  
I also believe your statement about menses not being physiologically as
'changeable' as semen to be incorrect. Hindu Saiva and Saktha Tantras, in fact,
describe an almost unbelievable amount of varying secretions, menses and
vaginal fluid both. Let's not completely ignore the latter either--while the
"best" blood may be "of the moon, monthly," BABALON & the Beast Conjoined plays
Its part, most-def!
  
Finally, while the Mass may be designed to maintain these "Secrets," I don't
believe Crowley's stated opinions should be considered carven in stone--the
"Secrets" can and do take myriad forms. I'm sure Crowley's own research *was*
performed mainly in certain directions, with perhaps not as much attention paid
to other schtuff as could've been, given his own views on Life, the Universe, &
Everythang.
  
I also recall AC's revelations about "hidden chakras" or _nadi_ that were
male-specific, completely ignoring similar & numerous chakra/nadi research
dealing with the female makeup, which were, I'd imagine, readily available to
him, since even Papa Karl seemed to know a fair amount about some of em.
  

 > discussed.  My suggestion was that a physical representation of that Tantra 
> should perhaps be accurately physically represented, and beyond Liber Al 
 > III, 24 (The best blood is of the moon), I am not familiar with any writing 
> regarding the female aspect of the O.T.O Tantra.I know I'm just summing up 
 > my own opinion again here, and I certainly don't mean to imply I don't 
 > respect your opinion.  I just wanted to expand on my opinion a little.
  
Your point about the "O.T.O. Tantra" is well-taken; it does diverge in several
more or less significant ways from most Indian/Hindu Tantric schools that I'm
aware of. I'm certainly not *against* "gender correct" Masses, but don't
believe possible experimentation should be discouraged out of hand as being
"tantrically incorrect," when in fact many of the Tantras themselves support
gender-blending--almost all of them to some degree, I'd say. In fact,
cross-dressing, gender-bending, and even  _maithuna sadhana_ are not
that uncommon among _Kalidasa_ Saktha Tantrikas from several schools that I'm
aware of, and female-to-female _maithuna_ is frequently encouraged, while the
entire "positive/negative" "male/female" polarity is switched from what many
western practitioners regard as the "usual" ; with Sakthi
being very much the "ACTIVE" principle, and woman-controlled sexuality pretty
much the norm among most _Vamachari_.
  
I don't mean to imply that I don't respect your opinion either, most-def, but I
do enjoy blathering on about Things Tantric when I get the chance!  ;>

=====================================================
  
ZAIN11@aol.com:

Tim Moroney writes:

>>I may be missing something here, but isn't the upshot of this discussion 
>>that Crowleyan sex magic is not particularly related to Tantra, except in 
>>the way that volleyball is related to golf?

How can you be sure of that statement. Certainly Crowleyexplored the sexual
teachings of mny cultures, and he certainly had access to not only the Hindu
Yogic teachings but also the Mahyana Tibetian teachings as well. Why not an
eastern view.
It is also very likely (even moreso with Rues and Kellner) that they got most
of their teachings directly from the likes of Randolf/Theon/Burgoyne fro the
H.B. of L. and Brotherhood of Eulis schools. Also Crowley was no stranger to
the writings of Ida Craddock as well and her sexual/HGA experiences.

>> The handful of references he made to the naughty bits of the Shiva Sanhita
and >>the Hathayoga Pradipika don't seem to qualify them as major influences
and the >>form of the O.T.O. sexual teachings does nothing to suggest an
origin in or >>resemblance to Tantra.

And what "specific" teachings are you referring to exactly here ? Many of us
are familiar with particular texts in print that you "might"ber referring to,
but my friend, when it comes right down to it, the act is the act. How one
accesses the magical creative for inherent in that act is for the individual
operator to understand. 

>>I suggest we consider this idea that Crowley got his sex magic from 
>>Tantra as yet another of Francis King's dubious historical assertions, 
>>and bury it with him.

So what other avenues of besides Eastern Tantra would you suggest Crowley got
his ideas from. The idea of the Shekinah and it's relation to Hebrew
mysticism was familiar to him, not to mention the ALIM formaula which he
covers extensively in MTP. Care to elaborate any others he may have tapped
into. My guess is that he recognized the universality of the creative sexual
function in all egregores and was more than willing to tap inot any of them,
though I think he perferred the Arabic and the Greek.

============================================

"Daniel P. Schneider"  >	What's a good starter book on Tantra?  Are/is there any that you
> >regard as worthwhile that relate to OTO-style?

The best book I've ever seen that even comes close to an introduction on
tantra is _Introduction to Tantra: A Vision of Totality_ by Lama Yeshe.
This deals only with Tibetan Buddhist Tantra, but is still a great intro
into some of the main principles that many forms of Tantra seem to
encompass. As for stuff that is OTO related, check out some of the books
by P.B. Randolph.I don't know that he would exactly call his work tantric,
since he seems to attempt to prtray his work as being garnered from many
traditions. There many people, including myself, who think that
there was a direct lineage of much of his work into the HB of L (Hermetic
Brotherhood of Luxor) and then from there into the OTO. There is actually
a really good biography (or so I'm told, I haven't gotten a chance to read
it yet) that was just published on Randolph. He was a very interesting
guy.

> 
> I may be missing something here, but isn't the upshot of this discussion 
> that Crowleyan sex magic is not particularly related to Tantra, except in 
> the way that volleyball is related to golf? The handful of references he 
> made to the naughty bits of the Shiva Sanhita and the Hathayoga Pradipika 
> don't seem to qualify them as major influences and the form of the O.T.O. 
> sexual teachings does nothing to suggest an origin in or resemblance to 
> Tantra.

I'm not sure what you are basing this on. I'm curious, what exactly are
you defining as "tantra"? What would you qualify as an influence?

> 
> I suggest we consider this idea that Crowley got his sex magic from 
> Tantra as yet another of Francis King's dubious historical assertions, 
> and bury it with him.

I think there is much more evidence then King's remarks, but I'll wait
until you state on which grounds you are disputing the tantric influences
before I say anything.

============================================

Tim Maroney :

>As for stuff that is OTO related, check out some of the books
>by P.B. Randolph.

I've read a good deal of Randolph and HBL material and I never understood 
why people thought there was much of a connection to O.T.O. Can you find 
the all-important twin souls doctrine in O.T.O., for instance? Or the 
spermatic Christian Trinity in Randolph and HBL?

Well, OK, I'm being disingenuous, I do think I know the reason people say 
this. Occultists are always hoping to find some unified secret doctrine 
behind the scenes and they use surface resemblances to convince 
themselves they've found it, screening out points of divergence in the 
process. This comes up all the time in investigating the issue of 
pre-Gardnerian witchcraft, for instance. There were almost certainly 
people calling themselves witches before Gardner -- in fact, if you do a 
search through the electronic O.T.O. Crowley archives you'll pull up more 
witchcraft symbolism than you'll be able to wade through in a fortnight 
-- but there's a faction that always jumps to the conclusion that these 
were parts of a unified tradition. To them whenever you find a "witch" 
before Gardner you find the tradition from which Gardnerian witchcraft 
came. In fact there were probably several relatively disconnected groups 
drawing from the same pool of Western myth, rather than one set of 
witchcraft reclaimers (or survivors....) who all interacted with each 
other.

The same seems to be true with sex. If there were two sex-magical groups, 
then of course (according to these Grand Unifiers) they must have been 
related in some significant way. Never mind that if you actually study 
the systems you find their teachings were completely different and 
incompatible!

But hey, people think Apollo and Ra were practically the same god too, so 
this kind of thing shouldn't be a surprise.

> There is actually
>a really good biography (or so I'm told, I haven't gotten a chance to read
>it yet) that was just published on Randolph. He was a very interesting
>guy.

I strongly recommend the book. Deveney has done a great job. He was also 
the main author of the great book on the HBL that Weiser came out with 
recently.

======================================================

ZAIN11@aol.com:

Sorry to butt in on your question to rose,, but a generally good book on
western Tantra is Mumfords "Ecstacy Through Tantra" or if you can find it the
older version entitled, "Sexual Occultism". Also, I know you missed the Don
Kraig class here on the "Secret History of Sex Magick" where he offered up
some very provocative information on the foundations of the roots of the
Western Sex MAgick traditions, quite off the norm of Eadstern Tantra to P.B.
Randolph/Max Theon to H.B.ofL. to O.T.O. line of progress. Don is alo
supposed to be coming out with a new "hands on" (sorry about the pun) very
soon.  Also "The Tantric Mysticism of Tibet" by John Blofeld is also quite
good. 

==================================

john.sentrax@mail.ndirect.co.uk (John Everall):

In fairness to Francis King, he does concede that Kellner's claims to have
been iniatiated into Tantric practices during his travels in the Orient are
quite conceivably spurious(_ The Magical World of Aleister Crowley_ page
78).
 One question I would ask is whether it is conceivable that Tantric ideas
filtered through to Crowley via his great hero, Sir Richard Burton? I know
a couple of Burton's translations of Eastern classics, but I have no idea
if he actually translated any Tantric-related material(does the _Karma
Sutra_ qualify?). Any Burton scholars out there?

===================================================

maat@IO.COM (Baphemetis Continuity):

On the subject of books about Tantra -

"Passionate Enlightenment - Women in Tantric Buddhism"
by Miranda Shaw is a wonderful and mindblowing book. It's
quite informative, especially for anyone who is a little
shaky about the difference between Hindu, Buddhist,
and Western Tantra.

===================================================

Tim Maroney :

>In fairness to Francis King, he does concede that Kellner's claims to have
>been iniatiated into Tantric practices during his travels in the Orient are
>quite conceivably spurious(_ The Magical World of Aleister Crowley_ page
>78).

But in the section quoted by [333], in a more recent book, King waves 
away the issue, saying that there's no reason to doubt Kellner's account. 
Of course there's reason to doubt claims of Eastern initiatic adventures 
by Western occultists of the late 19th century! In fact, they should be 
considered false until proven true. Even the people who did actually go 
to the East and hang around with Buddhists and Hindus were highly prone 
to confabulation, and there are many completely imaginary accounts (e.g., 
P. B. Randolph's and many of Blavatsky's).

> One question I would ask is whether it is conceivable that Tantric ideas
>filtered through to Crowley via his great hero, Sir Richard Burton? I know
>a couple of Burton's translations of Eastern classics, but I have no idea
>if he actually translated any Tantric-related material(does the _Karma
>Sutra_ qualify?). Any Burton scholars out there?

I don't think this would be anything more than an influence through 
Burton's books, which helped to legitimize the theme through translations 
of books like the Perfumed Garden and the Kama Sutra. Did you see the 
discussion of Crowley's anti-Semitic foreword to Sepher Sephiroth on 
ARCANA a few months ago, in which he praises Burton for committing blood 
libel? It didn't seem there was any evidence Crowley had an inside track 
on the case. There is no question of Crowley's admiration for Burton and 
familiarity with his works but I don't know of a channel for direct 
transmission of Burton's initiatic secrets in Sufism and other traditions 
to Crowley. However, as K. Paul Johnson has pointed out, Burton did have 
Theosophical contacts and involvement; the possibility of more extensive 
occult connections has not been ruled out.

======================================================

rose.dawn@ouroboros.org (Rose Dawn):

-> From: LAUER_LEROY  
   
->  What's a good starter book on Tantra?  Are/is there any that you 
-> regard as worthwhile that relate to OTO-style? 
     
Hmmm...when you say 'starter,' do you mean *beginner* or simply a 
decent overview? For ye olde 'everything-but-the-kitchen-sink' look-see 
at various tantric systems, but without much  practical advice, 
it's gotta be Nik'n'Penny's _Sexual Secrets_. However, there's a 
distinctly male-homophobic slant to the book, as well as some other 
info presented as 'gospel' which in fact merely reflects certain 
teachers' personal op's/doctrines, and some of which I don't find 
scripturally accurate a'tall. However, Penny Slinger's illo's are 
beautiful, the book's big, and you can get a lotta background-type 
info. 
   
If you're looking for specific instructions on how to accomplish 
certain acts, many/most of the tantra-specific texts will go into great 
detail about such things as _vajroli_, _murccha_, &c, then cop out with 
"But this is a Very Great Secret  Which I Must Not Reveal To The 
Uninitiate For Their Own Safety!" statements. Jon Mummford is 
*notorious* for this! Straight 'hatha' type books are the best for 
practical instruction on many 'tantric' practices; ie, BKS Iyengar's 
_Light On Yoga_ and _Light on Pranayama_, Swami Visnu-devananda's book 
, Kevin & Venica Kingslands' _Hatha Yoga_ 
<*if* you can find it; UK-published, may be outa print>, uhmmm, I'm 
sorry, my brain's about half-fried & that's all I can think of at the 
moment! 
   
Personally, I *always* recommend Woodroffe/Avalon, tho he's not to 
everyone's taste, specially _The Serpent Power_ and _Sakti and Sakta_; 
also _The World as Power_. For English translations, he's my own 
personal fave.  ;> 
   
Mokerjee's _kundalini_ and _kali: the feminine force_ won't give you a 
*whole* lotta practical instruction either, but have many beautiful 
pix, and _Kundalini_ will give you kundalini/chakrastuff info. Do the 
Tantras themselves count?  ;>  I thought you'd already read many of 
them...? 
     
If by "O.T.O. style," you mean western sex-magical, you've probably 
read more of em than I have! I would absolutely NOT recommend Francis 
King's _Tantra for Westerners_; considered it a waste of time, & he 
pulls some of the tricks that turn me off. Also, don't bother with 
Mummford's _Ecstasy Through Tantra_, but his _Chakra & Kundalini 
Workbook_ has some nice exercises in it, tho they're chakra-kundalini 
specific  rather than "Tantric." 
   
Mike Magee's webpage  
contains some accurate translations of many of the tantric texts that 
are not widely available in English, & is most-def worth checking out. 
   
I think of Robert Svoboda's works as "Woodruffe-Light" , IOW, if you 
have copies of Woodroffe/Avalon's books, you won't hear NEthang you 
haven't heard already, *but* Svoboda's style is much less 'dry' and 
he's understandable & clear. Those'd be _Aghora: At the Left Hand of 
God_ and _Aghora II: Kundalini_. I believe his tantric master as ref'd 
in the books to be Castenedically-apocryphal; but the info presented is 
fairly accurate, & condensed from other texts that it'd take time, 
energy & $$ to accumulate. 
   
Agehananda Bharati's books I personally truly dig. Again, nothing "OTO 
style" there tho, really. 
   
Is any of this what you were looking for?  :> 

============================================
   
maat@IO.COM (Baphemetis Continuity):

Dear Rose, and All,

>Agehananda Bharati's books I personally truly dig. Again, nothing "OTO 
>style" there tho, really. 

Yeah, _Tantric Traditions_ is pretty chewy, but,
you do end up knowing something at the end of the day.

Thanks for the tip on Mike Magee.  I assume you mean
the 'Hindu Tantrik Homepage" located at
http://www.hubcom.com/tantric/
He's got a good translation of the Yoni Tantra.

Meanwhile, there are a couple of texts I've been looking
for - if anybody's got 'em or knows where I can get 'em,
please write me.

I need translations of the Hevajra Tantra, and the
Candamaharoshana Tantra, for starters. I haven't had
luck ordering them, although theoretically they are in
print, in the Christopher George translation.

=====================================================

rose.dawn@ouroboros.org (Rose Dawn):

-> From: maat@io.com (Baphemetis Continuity )
  
-> Yeah, _Tantric Traditions_ is pretty chewy, but,
-> you do end up knowing something at the end of the day.
  
_The Ochre Robe_ is a good'un too!  :>
  

-> Thanks for the tip on Mike Magee.  I assume you mean
-> the 'Hindu Tantrik Homepage" located at
-> http://www.hubcom.com/tantric/
-> He's got a good translation of the Yoni Tantra.
  
That'd be the one. Thanks for the address! D'acc on the YT translation.
He's got some other hard-to-find-in-English stuff there as well .
  


-> I need translations of the Hevajra Tantra, and the
-> Candamaharoshana Tantra, for starters. I haven't had
-> luck ordering them, although theoretically they are in
-> print, in the Christopher George translation.
  
I know Nataraj Books in Virginia offers *several* translations of the
Hevajra; & am willing to bet they'd have the Candamaharosana as well .
  
I've recommended these guys *so* often, to everyone--imagine my dismay
when I discovered that I can't find their address, apres-moving!  :'{
  
Christeos, do you happen to have it handy?  ;>  I'd be personally
appreciative, since I'd like to get with em again myself, & recommend
that ANYONE interested in Things Yogic, including tantra, write for a
free catalogue or series of catalogues--they're also reachable by phone
& FAX, maybe by now even by e-mail.
  
Absolutely THE best source  for difficult-to-locate
texts in English, Sanskrit, and several other languages. And I feel like
an utter idiot for having misplaced their address/phone/FAX, & hope
someone can provide same!

==================================================
  
rose.dawn@ouroboros.org (Rose Dawn):

-> From: "Chris Feldman" 
  
-> Found the listing on Infoseek. Took about 3 milliseconds, too.

-> Nataraj Books
-> 7073 Brookfield Plaza
-> Springfield VA 22150-2915
-> 703/455-4996
-> 703/912-9052 fax
  
Nuit, Hadit, & Ra-Hoor-Khuit bless you!  :>
  
I've copied it into my address book this time so I don't lose it again
.
  
You can call or write for free catalogues; specify 'tantra' 'yoga'
'religion' 'general,' etc., or ask em by phone, FAX, or letter what
they've got to offer, tell em what yer looking for, etc.
  
They get my highest personal rec' for having or being able to get
'schtuff' of an eastern bent that nobody else can find...well, Indian
stuff NEwayz, I know they do carry some other texts, but haven't ordered
any, so can't vouch for em that way.

==================================================
  
EOF
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