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To: Usenet From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (xiwangmu) Subject: Thelemic Representation/Authority (LONG/OTO)(Was Re: Typhonian trad...) Date: 9 Dec 1995 06:21:03 -0800 kaliyuga 49951209 composed and lost, second try E6 heidrick@well.sf.ca.us (Bill Heidrick; GTG/OTO): [xiwangmu] #|neither [Bill] nor any other Officer of the OTO speaks for #|the Order membership as a whole.... there is no consistent doctrine #|agreed-upon by its membership.... #OTO is not a democracy. The demographics of individual OTO member belief #pattern are irrelevant to what OTO says as OTO. But they do play a part in explaining precisely what you mean by 'OTO says X', since that is one of the most common ways you will be interpreted. Thus if you wish to be clear, you have to explain more fully (which you are doing in response to my queries). #In OTO, all you have to do is believe in Liber AL on your own terms This says nothing about of what that belief consists. #and otherwise conform to the minimum structural rules that are necessary #for the continued existence of OTO in accord with its nature. These are mostly administrative and don't include an agreement to abide a set of beliefs to which all OTO members shall conform. #OTO trys, among other things, to provide a model for function in a #believing society. What is a 'believing society'? Are there unbelieving societies? How does OTO provide this model? By saying 'OTO believes X' even when its members may not? #The individuals can't be expected to believe exactly as the common vehicle #provides in all it's details. Why does the 'common vehicle' (the Officers) have to have any 'beliefs' at all? Why can't y'all just say what you think at the time in reflection of the Law of Thelema? Would you please delineate between your own beliefs as a person separate from the OTO and the OHO's dictums which you must propagate? Is this usually a function of the 'GTG/OTO' .sig? If so, ought we presume that every time you use it you become a mouthpiece for the OTO Pope? #Old Aeon social structures required members to lie about that as often #as not. Isn't that what you are doing now, or being deceptive at least? #As a Thelemic model religion and society, Do you think that you are fairly presenting a model of Thelema by deceiving readers into thinking that all OTO members think alike? That is, using corporate-ease, isn't this one more Old Aeon example of doublespeak to influence the slumbering herds? Is this an example of how a Thelemic society functions? Are you the equivalent of the President's spokesperson concerning 'what the US govt (supposedly the people) believes'? #OTO provides a pattern which allows individual creation of world view. Of what does this pattern consist? Given an individual worldview creation, why must OTO Officials go on to have one of 'its own' (i.e. the OHO/Officers making up whatever they may find palatable)? #It's quite ...impossible to be the same as that thing and everybody in it. True, but why can't the Order Officials use the Fourth Power of the Sphinx (silence) and let the membership carry the Message of the Law to the masses? What I see is that you're operating as head with no body. Eventually, seeing the difference between what 'OTO believes' as portrayed by you, and what individual OTO members portray to the world, you'll start turning people away, won't you? Perhaps this is like the Catholic Church. Does this have anything to do with the EGC? How much? #Democracy is Old Aeon, just as Tyranny is Old Aeon. Uh, ok. I wasn't talking about government but about representation of the Order of which you are the GTG and how that is deceitful. Are you saying that deceit is important to the Law of Thelema or the 'New AEon'? #In this form, there is central definition and distal variation. What is the value of central definition (the Officers telling us what 'OTO believes')? Why cannot the center be relegated to dispersing the reflections and commonalities of the distal variation (the individual OTO members and their thoughts/values)? Is there some method to this form? What are the advantages of central definition? #|Even *feigned* acceptance of some all-encompassing #|'Doctrine of OTO' flies in the face of what most of #|those who consider ourselves 'Thelemites' hold dear. #Feigned acceptance does fly in the face of Thelema to an extent. #What does this have to do with the issue? I am asking if deceit is the currency of Thelema. I am asking if you expect common folk to distinguish between the center and distal without your explanation (until I ask). I'm asking if what you are doing will have liberative effects which many people associate with Thelema or if you are perpetuating Old AEon standards of doublespeak and bait-n-switch. #|I think the careful analysis would include quotes from _Aleister Crowley #|and the Hidden God_, which I am currently reading for the first time. #Why? Careful analysis of the issue of what Grant thinks about Aleister Crowley and his gods would include a book by Grant on this subject. #|OTO doesn't have the capacity for broad-ranging statements concerning #|the beliefs of its membership, and there is no required dogma, so the #|usage of 'OTO' is simply obfuscatory and deceitful. #Of course OTO can make broad-ranging statements concerning the beliefs of #the membership. Such statements are in fact echoed above. Those aren't the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking about statements which give the impression that OTO thinks and does everything as a unit/group. #|What you *really mean* (and don't often say for fear of #|its silliness) is that 'OTO Officials would not accept that'. #What silliness? The silliness that you try to sound like you speak for the whole in regards beliefs even though you cannot. #...It's always only one OTO official who decides these things. That's the #nature of OTO. The OHO takes the council of whom he or she pleases and #makes the decision for matters of this kind. Matters of what kind? Theoretical? What OTO will promote in a deceitful way to influence the popular mindset? If the OHO told you that 'OTO now believes in unicorns' would you then expound on exactly *how* 'OTO sees unicorns and other faere folk', etc.? If the OHO reversed hir ideas about a subject how would you handle this in public? #Representatives such as myself occasionally have to put that forward as #the official view of OTO. In effect you put forward the decrees of a Thelemic Pope, calling your expression 'a statement of what OTO believes'. In fact the membership is not a body of similiar believing people, and so your words are merely political propaganda, whether youulike doing the job or not, yes? #Otherwise, we have the usual details of knowing the operations, pattern, #history and such to put forward with our individual opinions. Occasionally you don't? You just say 'OTO thinks X' and then make up the rest? Or do you have to go back to the OHO for more to say to the public about what the OTO believes? Are you really that hamstringed/determined by the OHO? Could you explain exactly what the OHO *is* to the OTO? Will that change over time with the evolution of the Order? What are the designated duties and responsibilities of the OHO? How often do you interact with said individual? Are there printed documents containing the various OHO decrees? E6/E6/E6 xiwangmu tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- CC public responses to email (I may respond publically to any email I receive). READ alt.magick.tyagi TRY : http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html ______________
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