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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.religion.misc,alt.thelema,alt.pagan From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) Subject: Re: Thelemic Monasticism Date: 11 Apr 1997 00:49:59 -0700 49970407 AA1 Hail Satan! E6 DB: #> # ...Thelemic Monasticism should contain the elements of a community #> # which is working towards a common goal or stated purpose. nigris: #> I don't know why you call this 'monasticism', then. as I said elsewhere, #> why not call it an 'Intentional Thelemic Community' and avoid the whole #> question of religious elements? in this sense the Haus Kaos is most #> accurately called a 'Thelemic Community' as it does not have any stated #> purpose beyond abiding the Rule (no rules). "D."#Please notice that I said "should contain" and "elements of a #community." Thelemic Monasticism would imply (and here we redefine again #our terminology) that the structure goes beyond mere communal survival #through the implementation of a Thelemic code of ethics. 'implementation of a Thelemic code of ethics' is the crucial phrase. can a Thelemic code of ethics be implemented? by an autocracy? oligarchy? or does it grow naturally within certain anarchic environments when nurtured through exposure to demonstrated Thelemic behavior? is this the function of instruction and the proper place of the Holy Books? nigris: #> my understanding is that there is quite a body of self-described 'Thelemites' #> whose lives include just this kind belief set, albeit somewhat more #> abstracted than conventional religious establishments. I'm sure that AD #> could say more here. #I have no first hand knowledge, but I believe there is the "Oz House" in #California? I have only heard of such a place through others. I have visited Oz House many times. it had previously been Thelema Lodge of the COTO. I don't know of its present condition, though I have heard some severe horror stories. additional reference desired. #...just utilizing the Thelemic _Holy Books_ does not make a #community Thelemic unless the principles within those texts are found #within the actions (or more properly attitudes?) of the participants. how would these books be "utilized"? social instruction? are they sufficiently succinct and clear as to be used for this purpose? how will you know when the principles are found in the actions of the participants? how might this be regulated? #more extreme example is this: Running a whore house with the Bible on a #pedestal in the front hall and calling it a Convent.... there are countless means by which any establishment could be run "by the book" when the book says almost nothing about conflict resolution and the practical details of organized efficiency and purpose. in the case of _The Bible_ there is at least a manner of conflict resolution in Luke. I don't understand how you propose to go about using _The Holy Books of Thelema_. nigris: #> I'd like to hear more about this "eclectic Rule of [indulgence]", what #> you think it includes or need include, and how you would reconcile it #> with the traditional rigors and environment of ascetic discipline. # #Give me some time on this one. beep. nigris: #> unless there was an established structure such as AD's which replicated #> itself based on an 11-member cell-system and the Rule incorporated the #> particulars of the social framework. # #The problem with replication is that it either breeds satiety or conformity. I don't follow your logic. replication does not require either. stability does not necessitate either satiety or conformity, though conformity of *some* sort is necessary in the establishment of a community, no? #[Satiety] produces nothing more than the destruction of discipline. #[Conformity] produces nothing more than mindless (religious?) robots. perhaps at their extremes, though I am unsure why Aeth's cellular propagation need necessarily emphasize either result. could you say more? nigris: #> the direction of a phiosophical, rather than religious consideration of #>'Thelemic' #I would say this is the beginning of the conversation. Without the #understanding of the basic philosophical foundation of such an endeavor, #any religious consideration would be mindless association with a cult #and produce slavery under the guise of discipline. then let us get this philosophical understanding under our belts. can you in a paragraph elaborate the qualities of what would make any organized body 'Thelemic' given your understanding of the Law? AD challenged me to do this and I think it was a valuable exercise. we need to be working on this if we truly want to have something to contrast against the more visible religious structure. from there we can begin examining what kind of a Rule would emphasize or encourage these qualities. #> evaluate thoroughly from a *philosophic* perspective as regards #> its theoretical necessity in the manifestation of a Thelemic Abbey #> not aligned to any particular religious framework.... evaluating... DB: $ The Rule should contain such elements of: I presume for the moment that we are here setting about evaluating a Rule for an *extensive* organization which would require severe definition in order to survive. I will mention small groups also. $ 1) personal managment of the spiritual/philosophical pursuits; presumably these being in consort. if there were few or none in common then the only requirement would be how to *coordinate* these such that they did not clash (zazen/guitar example). in other words, the method of conflict resolution might be included here (do you have suggestions?). small groups wouldn't need this. $ 2) group interaction; authority structures, conflict resolution as above, based on 4. in fact I would renumber, switching 4 to this spot and shifting the rest down. small groups wouldn't necessarily need this defined either. $ 3) outside influences and their allowance or control; from social to civil. I think it might also go other way: Abbey intents as regards influencing and control of outside influences. small group will need this at least in rule. $ 4) obligations of the individual to the abbey; and levels of responsibility (obligations of ind to abb) and corresponding influence based on this (obligations of abb to ind). small group will need this also. $ 5) protection of the group from the egos of the individual. and protection of the individual from the group ego (the real danger). small groups should patrol themselves. I'm unsure how a large group would go about this protection. could you say more? $ The rule should contain: $ 1) practical and financial necessities of sustaning the abbey; I have yet to hear how any Abbey would work in these details. AD said he mentioned elsewhere but apparently didn't cc to the rest of us as regards the $ of Aeth. his commentary on the breakdown of modern society is indicative of his reasoning for the Kaaba. how insular should the Abbey be? where does it start being a club or cost relief instead of a spiritual environment? small groups would need this. $ 2) admission and dismissal procedures; this is essential to any size group, even if informal. $ 3) standard operational and routine structures; and important to large body, small can get away with very few and variable. $ 4) governmental policies in regards to internal and external conflicts. this last is where I see the basis of the structure coming into play. the means by which conflicts of various sorts are to be resolved is intimately determined by the authority-structure of the body. it is for this reason that an autocratic or oligarchic structure functions 'efficiently' as regards energies expended toward such resolution. balancing this against a *Thelemic* character, I would ask what options satisfy. #let us find a common functional Rule that is philosophical in nature #conforming to the Law of Thelema and yet (at first) disregarding the #religious nature of the cult tendancy. Yes, I would say that for #something of a large scale effort to create an Abbey would require more #than just the statement of "do what thou wilt." Haus Kaos 'do what thou wilt' is sufficient for the Rule. the meaning of this Rule has been discussed quite a few times. it has come to mean a variety of things to its participants, but in general I would say the over-riding majority understand it to require: * a suspension of conventional monetary and proprietary rights or conditions as indicators of decision-making authority * a willingness to be sensitive to the needs of participants * a willingness to make known limitations, inform of boundary transgressions, confront directly or in Haus Meetings, or accept the current condition as satisfactory * a commitment to communicate with participants openly, negotiate on conflicts of interest, consider alternate perspectives and work toward some resolution which will serve the group's integrity beyond this, the 'rule' is unspecified, defaulting to operational standards and routine structures which are flexible and molded to fit around the configuration of participants. Larger Body 'do what thou wilt' would work if the participants were very well-acquainted. otherwise, I would add 'love is the law', and specify the following that its content requires: * a presumption that everyone involved is working toward the clearly stated purpose of the group (if there is one) and the benefit of each individual, and that if it should be brought to light that this is not the case, then all will work to rectify this * a presumption that courtesy is the responsibility of those who live in proximity, that variation of lifestyle (if such exists) and perspective make necessary a restriction of privilege, and that inability to negotiate on this point will eventually lead to expulsion * an understanding that limited resources make crucial the focus on functional accessibility, and that aesthetic considerations, while important, are secondary more? we would not need to add religious elements to the Rule until the initial 'Thelemic' elements were concisely included, and the operational/functional particulars would be included in the rule, subject to the scrutiny of the Rule's carriage. I will not at this time attempt to elaborate on a rule, since it would depend in some measure on the conditions (environmental, structural, financial) of the Abbey and the content of the Rule. #It might well be that we can explore the relgious nature of such a Rule #after the foundation for the Rule has been laid.... precisely. E6/6/6 3 3 3 nigris
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