a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Thelema, Orders, Crowley

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.thelema
From: (xiwangmu)
Subject: Thelema, Orders, Crowley
Date: 8 Dec 1995 14:29:02 -0800

kaliyuga (cc'd to Thelema93-L)
49951208 from private email, awhile ago

#From: (Jeffrey C. Williams)
#Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:47:01 -0800

[most deleted]

#"Which of the several Thelemic groups aught I approach to begin a more 
#formal course of study?"  

Formal courses of study are easily come by.  You don't even have to
join the Orders of the Thelemic community to engage them.  There is
a neat little treatise on this subject by Frs. Alpha/Heidrick/Grabe
wrt to the OTO, for example, called 'Liber MCLI' (contact BHeidrick
for more about OTO and MCLI).

#I've encountered the OTO, The College of Thelema and the Temple of 
#Thelema, The A.'.A.'., the Gnostic Catholic Church, 

That's quite a mouthful.  My understanding is that most of these are
related via Crowley and Soror Meral/Lodge 418.  BHeidrick or Greg or
somebody else regarding the particulars of these various organizations.
Your best course may be to examine these organizations as you have and
then either select one from which to derive your studies or compose
your on in reflection of what has been offerred you.

#...the Order of the Thelemic Golden Dawn 
#and the Hermetic Temple and Order of the Golden Dawn.  

I know very little about these.

#I'm probably leaving something out - 

I'm not sure what.

#...there seems to be a lot of groups.  I get the impression that there 
#is some rivalry between some of them.  

That is correct.  As with most humanoids, get more than 2 together doing
the same things and you've got political faction in-fighting.

#What I haven't been able to determine is if there is one such group that 
#can be said to have the "best" (whatever that means) course of study 

I don't think so.  It all depends on your needs and predilections.  For
you the Golden Dawn or AA might fit perfectly while for neither would
suffice.  Most depends on your character and background.  Thus you are
the best one to make this decision, perhaps with a good mentor friend
who knows alot about you).

#or is most interested in teaching neophytes.  

I think they're all eager for more mouths.

#Is there any value to be ascribed to a "lineage" back to Crowley?  

This is a matter of some speculation.  I'll comment only on what I have
a reasonable possibility of knowing: 

	OTO - definitely connected to Crowley if you're talking about
	      that OTO which makes it home in NY/US; there is some
	      squabble (w/ Grant/others) over whether it yet encapsulates
	      what the Master Therion had in mind for the Order, and
	      in result of this which organization associating itself
	      with him he would recommend (usually people select the
	      org of which they are a member there, no surprise)

	CoT/ToT/AA1 - These are Western esoteric orgs which are
		      supposedly branches or children of an Order
		      that AC supposedly initiated ("A.'.A.'."),
		      as per Liber LX if memory serves; there
		      are other 'AA's besides the one which the
		      ToT/CoT 'serve'

	EGC (Gnostic Catholic Church; Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica) -
		associated directly with OTO as far as I know, and
		thus follows on the comment for it above

	GD/OTGD - I know nothing about it, though there are extensive
	          documents online.  I think this is the org that was
    	          initially an OTO body which become a rival order
	          (per David Cherubim? corrections welcome); you can
       		  probably find information about this and other GD
	       	  groups in the gdref ("alt.magick GD FAQ").

	Herm Tmple - Never heard of it.  Please elaborate.

#Are there groups with a stigma attached to them such that training 
#with them might make one less welcome in other Thelemic bodies?

Great question, and not an easy one to answer, due to the possible
rivalries of which I know nothing.  I think there is a slight rivalry
amongst the AA's, as well as between GD and OTO.  The rest I'm unsure
about and hope that others will comment.

#I hope my questions are not to broad.  If they are and you find that you
#can't really answer them perhaps you could just give me a general report on
#things Thelemic.  I will appreciate greatly any help you can give me!  I
#just want to know where to go from here.

	Also see:


I have read (as I'm sure you have) some fairly level-headed approaches to
the concept of Satanism insofar as it is a renunciation of organized
religions that are based on the need for suffering, and the constant
atonement for our creation as sexual beings.  That it carries some
exceptionally disturbing baggage, and has been a magnet for a young
population growing increasingly hate-filled, goes without saying.  But
Satanism has existed in many cultures prior to the Christian era, and is
embodied in beings such as Kali, Set, Loki, etc. (penny newbury) : alt.magick.tyagi
CC public responses to email (I may respond publically to any email I receive).
	READ alt.magick.tyagi
        TRY :

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races