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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.christnet,talk.religion.misc,alt.consciousness.mysticism,talk.religion.newage
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Thelema, Logos, YHShVH, and Magick
Date: 3 May 1997 02:30:17 -0700

[technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness]

49970415 AA1  Hail Satan!  

E6

nigris:
#> doesn't every orientation to the world come with built-in weaknesses?
#> wouldn't ANY familiarization to the horribly outdated and paltry social
#> systems which currently manage human affairs necessarily err through a
#> rebellious elitism or a simpering conformism?  isn't it BENEFICIAL to
#> have the type of upbringing you appear to be here disclaiming as it
#> supports a continued semblance of social structure, allowing the real
#> will of an individual to demonstrate through throwing off this yoke that
#> she is ready for something more mature?

Judy Watson :
#...are you suggesting that parents should teach children from birth to 
#sublimate their will to that of others; that they should give the 
#message that the baby/child's needs are not as important as the needs 
#of the parents? or, further, would you suggest the christian church 
#upbringing of kids so they'll rebel in the right direction? 

I'm only pointing out the realistic limitation which parents face in
today's world: given responsibility for an essentially wild animal
from birth, providing *no* boundaries/restrictions on their children
seems to me to effectively harm them in just as deep a way as over-
doing it through overcensure.  given the two possible realms of error,
my question was: doesn't it make sense to err on the side of over-
restriction, since they are more likely to conform to societal needs,
thus in some sense contributing to a coherent social network rather
than merely "becoming a pack of wild juvenile delinquents with no
concept of civility whatever"?

it is an important issue when speaking of 'Thelemic childrearing',
and what kinds of approaches are 'realistic' from the standpoint
of the parents, the child(ren) and the society into which they
shall in some measure be thrust.


#...free them or whatever said  nope. you'll lose maybe 10%. the rest 
#will be back. 

#a bit facile, but look at today's society in america and how many people are 
#doing what they're doing because they have to. complain, complain. when 
#offered some suggestions, they are rejected because of improbability, 
#unworkability, that's not how things are done, *or because people like 
#things just fine the way they are*. 

almost a kind of imprinted fatalism.  yes.  it is this group which is
typically opposed (esp. ideally) by Satanists as 'the Herd' -- those
who have a conventional lifestyle, watch alot of television, and 
generally participate in mainstream middle-class living.


#> #anyone who recognizes this freedom in themsleves and respects it in
#> #others, seems to me to be a thelemite.
 
#> and yet is this 'freedom' of which you speak, beyond a facile claim to
#> extraordinary choice?  ...When an entire society is based upon the 
#> slavery-machine, what is the meaning of 'freedom' therein?  "you have 
#> the run of the cage!" say the slave-gods.

#...we can escape our conditioning, at least to some extent if not 
#completely, depending on the person and the culture and the conditioning. 
#are we talking "you have the run of hte cage" as in modern culture, ....?

yes, as in indoctrinated and persistent culture which perpetuates itself
and the gradual DEVOlution of the human species ("Are we not men?").
when society itself inspires this, isn't it valuable to attempt to
install some fundamental changes in society??  this was my real point,
since I think that Crowley was attempting to foster some of this change
with his evangelizing.  more below.


#> are you sure you don't need him to be a prophet?  there are social
#> potentials here which allow for the possibility of this Law being
#> instituted into an environment (a la LaVey) wherein it becomes THE
#> WHOLE.  where I live is one of these, albeit moderate. 
#
#tell me about this.

the Constition of the OTO is a sort of prototype for government wherein
the Law of Thelema supposedly holds sway.  I got the impression that
Crowley was attempting more than just the empowerment of the individual,
but a catalyzing effect (esp. through the Evil Book and its religion) of
transforming an ENTIRE SOCIETY.  in this case the object of such a
transformation would be such that "do what thou wilt" WOULD BE the whole
of even the common law, emphasizing personal integrity, the perfection
through discipline of the human being (a la many individuals, from what
is said of Christ to what Rabelais penned).  one might compare this
favorably to the Bene Gesserit witches in Dune, though perhaps without
so much eugenics (though if you ask Alexander Duncan he'll tell you
even this is necessary to 'preserve the current through heredity'), or
with various anarchistic tendencies (e.g. anarchosyndicalism).

as regards the Haus Kaos, we are a cooperative rental in a housing
tract within a conservative bedroom community.  we have one Rule:
no rules.  we do communicate quite a bit, establish nonbinding
agreements, occasionally experiment with minor communalism, group
activities, etc..  the present configuration includes mostly those
with a great deal of nonmainstream religious experience, and this
helps greatly.  we're all philosophers or religious of differing
pursuits (from Christian to Satanist, Wicca and Santaria to some
bits of Thelema). 


#> how widely
#> could this principle be replicated?  from individuals that have
#> broken free of slavery that's very clever, but as I said above,
#> freedom in a zoo is somewhat meaningless.
#
#what "out" is there to this zoo? 

that was my question.  if the transformation is only on an individual
by individual basis, how can it last, rather than sort of float on
the upper (class?) echelon of society, those fortunate enough to have
been exposed to the proper environment, genes, etc., unyoking the
collar and living out a somewhat constrained lifestyle?  wouldn't
there be some value in pushing this DEEPER, penetrating the underlying
social fabric so as to catalyze lasting widespread structural change
and the liberation of the human species?  this is one the things I 
found in Crowley's writings (at least the vision, if not some of the 
mechanics and esoteric principles).  it seems to have followed out
from Rosicrucian, Enlightenment and/or Masonic ideals.


#> through *words*, labels?  as I say in Manifesto Satanika and
#> elsewhere, this is precisely how the slave-machine WORKS.  the
#> co-option of the language (camouflaging the living verbiage as
#> it recedes into the past) is how rebels are converted to slaves.
#
#is the manifesto satanika on your website? ....

sorry, lazy of *me*!  :>

  ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Avidyana/Shaitan/Tokus/manifesto.tn


#> ah, but what about something MORE than this?  it is lovely to admire
#> the Virginal Spotlessness of the Incoming Babe, but then do we turn
#> to the next and avert our gaze as the first is mutilated and
#> handicapped?  what kind of Love is this?  where is the Crowned and
#> Conquering Child?  who shall be the Warriors for Innocence and the
#> respect addressed thereto?  who shall become the Knights of the
#> Mute and Wild Innocent (the Knights of Baphomet)?  where is chivalry?
#
#ah. the practical as well as the hypothetical. that's being a little 
#unrealistic to expect *that* from people, don't you think?

not for the visionary and social transformers, no.  I don't expect it,
really, though I will consistently push for it, from the time I was a
member of this underclass ("child") to the time of my death.  I really
think that the image of the Crowned and Conquering Child King is a
pointer toward the emancipation of children in society, as well as a
number of other very important things.


#...what i *do* have a reaction to, and a strong rebellious streak, is 
#traditional hermeticism, qabala, golden dawn type magick... it makes 
#me want to scream and tear its eyes out and strangle it and jump up 
#and down on it. this is a fairly major religious difference between 
#me and paul. 

what about it do you find so distressing?  I have some of the same
reactions at times, though it depends on the parts you're describing.


#i can also live in the eternal now, where i have no awareness of anything 
#but this moment. it's not a good way to live in the world. 

I think this has to be combined (believe it or not) with a very firm
groundedness.  the two are not necessarily easy to mesh well.


#> ...the reason that Jesus Christ was so special... is that he was the 
#> Child of the Divine who manifested the Perfect Shadow of His People, 
#> and they had them deal with it in the only way that they could handle 
#> it at the time....  

#talk to me about this shadow thing. more words, more symbols. talk 
#around it and point.

Jungian, the repressed elements of the (social/personal) psyche.  the idea 
(I don't presume Jesus to be historical) is that there was a huge 'problem' 
with unique messiahs (kristos), singular Sons of God, and simultaneously 
some extreme testiness about sacrificial kings (as 'INRI', King of the 
Jews, Christ is a vision of vulnerability, not one of power and glory as 
was popularly presumed about messiahs by other Jews).  

claiming identity as *the only one*, being evangelical about it, and 
pointing out shortcomings of the current Hebrew rabbis surely wasn't all
that comfortable for them, especially when there wasn't a horrendous 
differentiation between themselves and this rival Jewish sect (a faction 
of Jewish fanatics, basically, in some ways resembling Essenes).

more importantly for the history of Christianity, the notion of having
risen from the dead, enacting a New Covenant (Testament) with the Chosen
(remember that term from the Evil Book? :>), such that the old Mosaic Law 
*no longer applied to members of the Church* was, especially over time, 
deeply repulsive to a great many Jews, who strove valiantly to separate 
themselves through restriction (sin? :>) from the 'Gentiles' whom Paul 
was fervent to convert.

as time went by the blood libel was dished out nice and thick, Christians
being associated with incest (their kinship names and 'love feasts'
being popularly understood to imply immoral orgia) and cannibalism
(their eucharist naturally interpreted as a barbarous, nocturnal 
consumption of human flesh -- they rejected meat of the pagan 'idols'
which the state adored), eventually increating their antagonistic stance 
toward the Romans who began to persecute them directly (after a 
selective slander by Nero, it seems, according to the vulgar rumors). 

the early church prior to the third century C.E. was at times in heated
struggle with this society and government of its day, going so far as to
accept scripture (Rev of St. John) which demonized Rome, and, promoting 
a 'jihad'-like concept of reward to its martyrs of "immediate admission 
to paradise", especially among Montanists, it had to begin regulating 
the very logbooks of 'official martyrs to the cause' to keep track for
all the bodies and interior acclaim*.

(* -- quoting and referring here to _The Early Church_, by H. Chadwick,
      Penguin Books, 1993; pp. 12-30.)

what all this has to do with *interior* Shadow-work is at times a
tricky call to make, though what was being promoted by the early
church was nothing short of a complete revision of societal 
relationships, the destruction of the family and its focus on
blood-lineage as regards religion.  it was highly revolutionary
and must have seemed very frightening (at least initially) even
to its adherents.  certainly facing off the Romans could not have
been easy, nor could the acceptance of certain death at their
hands for professing one's faith to be Christianity.


#> to understand you'd have to comprehend the Formula of IHShVH so deeply
#> that you begin to manifest the Perfect Shadow of YOUR People, and this
#> will necessarily look DIFFERENT, appearing within a different context
#> to catalyze a similar if not identical PROCESS.  it is through this
#> process that you shall utter your Word, the Glory of Your Aeon.  it
#> is through this process that you shall transform the very cosmos.
#> mimicking previous Magi will not suffice.  it is an interior as well
#> as social affair which by definition arrives at a NEW configuration.

#IOX. 
#and the cosmos has to pass through me, and come out different on the other 
#side. 

that sounds rather painful. :>


#i love all you just said, and i've never thought about it using anything 
#like that model, with which i am completely unfamiliar. any more talking 
#you want to do about this would thrill me, or, since you've written a 
#lot of things already, perhaps the cliff notes are on your website 
#somewhere?

I've seldom gone into this sort of detail on the YHShVH formula as it
relates to what I term 'the Great Martyrdom Cult', though its relation
to Satanism and general characteristics may be found in the alt.satanism
FAQ, located at:

   ftp://ftp.hollyfeld.org/pub/Esoteric/Usenet/FAQs/FAQ.tokustn.9608

blessed beast!

_______________________________________________________________________________
nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/
-- 
see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html  and  call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!!
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