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To: alt.magick
From: Christeos_Pir@f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Christeos Pir)
Subject: Re: The A.'.A.'. (9406.the-aa-.cp)
Date: 49940608

Quoting: |tyagi mordred nagasiva 

 Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

 | I'm glad you agree with this.  What I'd like to know as follow up is
 | what do you think that the AA *is*, precisely?

 What you've called "GWB/AA/MBC" is something that I've conceived of as
 being pretty much as described: that is, a spiritual current or influence
 (directed ultimately by the Divine or Spiritualizing Force, and guided
 -so some say- by beings both incarnate and discarnate) concerned with
 increasing the spiritual or divinizing evolution. I'm phrasing this poorly,
 but it's as close as I can get offhand. I'm no writer, just a poor
 'Prentice Mage.

 | three labels for the same thing (GWB/AA/MBC), but does that make it any
 | easier to comprehend?  Why do such concepts arise in humans?  What
 | purpose do they serve?  How does their meaning change society and
 | to what extent?

 Those are _your_ questions, _your_ concerns. I don't have answers for you,
 and see no purpose to be served by sitting around trying to come up with
 some when it's not _my_ interest. IOW, my Will lies elsewhere.

 | Well, you tell me what 'that Order' is and I'll be happy to look at it
 | closely.  So far I've mostly heard talk here about orders that weren't
 | that Order, but prepared one for it, or were complimentary to it.  So
 | far I have not heard of a group which purported to BE the AA/GWB/MBC,
 | and I think it may be in somebody's best interest to keep it that way. 
 | I don't know about possibilities.  I'm asking about what people claim
 | and why.

 I couldn't care less what people claim or why. This too is not an area of
 interest for me. I don't give a shit who claims to be what, unless it affects
 me one way or another.

 | Please instruct us in the proper methods of evaluation such that we
 | can be reasonably certain that someone is a member of the AA/GWB/MBC.

 Not my bailiwick.

 | Presently my intuition dictates that the AA is a very important mneme
 | with many incarnations in various cultures and ages.

 Yes, I've already agreed with this.

 | I find it more valuable at present to UNDERestimate the associations
 | between any physical organization and the AA/GWB/MBC, on the basis of
 | interview with very many people who have no esoteric understanding
 | of the Order and its structure.

 QVIF.

 | I am looking, however, for anyone who would like to represent the AA
 | itself, someone who will firmly and plainly shout: 
 | 
 | 	"I am of the Celestial Masters!  I am an immortal being 
 | 	 whose depth and complexity you shall not perceive in the 
 | 	 short duration which you live and die!"

 Very dramatic. OK, I can honestly say that _I_ am of the Celestial Masters,
 and am an immortal being etc... So what? So are you, and so is my boss, who's
 an asshole. BFD.

 | You say that this latter is false.  Please substantiate your claim
 | by bringing forth one individual who speaks for the AA/GWB/MBC.

 "Speaks for"? What makes you think that any one individual can, or would,
 speak for the whole?

 | Pardon me?  Of which order do you speak which calls itself the AA?
 | Please point me in their direction, or even toward someone who claims
 | to know someone who is in the AA/GWB/MBC (is this a summoning?).

 Still confusing the two: the sempiternal and the manifestations.

 Either I'm being dense, or you are. I think it's pretty clear from looking
 through this thread, that the _manifested_ order under discussion is the
 order founded by Crowley and Jones, written of by Crowley in many works
 -especially One Star In Sight-, and written of by Fuller, Regardie, and
 others, including, most recently, Jim Eshelman. Note that his book says
 it's about the A.'.A.'., NOT TOT or COT.

 | How did you determine this?  On what basis do you make this
 | assessment, and how closely did you examine the organizations?  I
 | suspect you of sloppiness, soldier.

 QVIF, again. I didn't determine it. It's my _opinion_ and clearly labelled
 as such. What basis? Personal gnosis, intuition, and experience in agreeement
 with similarly expressed beliefs of others.

 | Esqueeze me?  I'm sorry, but I don't know what books of specific
 | grades you are talking about.  

 Have you read JE's book? Doesn't sound like it.

 | COT/TOT Grades? Please exhibit more information and documentary
 | evidence regarding these references.  Regardie, perhaps?   Le Creaulie?

 At the risk of sounding rude -and only intending blunt honesty- do your own
 research.

 | Interesting.  What is this 'real' AA?  How is it different than a
 | 'fake'? How would you differ with me given a DIFFERENT premise?

 Sorry, poor choice of words... I was using "real" in this context as a
 replacement for "Eternal" or "Sempiternal" or "Praeturnatural" or
 "Spiritual, Unmanifest" ...

 | What prevents you from free speech?  I urge you to cast it aside in
 | the name of brotherhood and tell us everything you know.  We shall be
 | one in treason, my heretic brother. :>  <==== evul grin

 Sorry... some oaths aren't worth breaking: the real ones, not the social
 constraints.

 | Well GOOD!  Please substantiate this in some way.  Tell us why you
 | think this, what method brought you to this tentative conclusion,
 | and how you are going about (if so) testing it further.

 My position any clearer now? If not... [shrug]
 
 Love is the law, love under will.

      - Christeos Pir
      Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O.

 
... These animals are sacred unto me; the goat, and the duck, and the ass,