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To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org From: Bill HeidrickSubject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:09:36 93, Without prejudice to OTO: Patrick Crumhorn wrote > Based on observation over the years, I would presume that the (C)OTO, >like the (T)OTO, imposes no restrictions of this type upon its individual >members...only a restriction as regards *official* OTO functions. In >other words, don't light up a joint at an official, public, Gnostic Mass, >but if you're performing an unofficial rite outside of formal OTO >functions, then Do what thou wilt. If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure >I'll be quickly corrected. ;-) As usual, where "(c)OTO" was written, I respond with "OTO". I don't have personal knowledge of the "(T)OTO" aspect, but the OTO itself is pretty much that way. Illegal acts that involve OTO, other OTO members or guests of OTO are considered violations of both Liber OZ and common sense (often the same thing), in that they unduly risk freedom of others. That means no contraban or solicitation for such at OTO places or functions. Otherwise, subject to condition, the matter is up to the individual. Don't hurt anybody else through deliberate action or serious negligence. Beyond that, it you mess yourself up to the point that you are seriously mentally impaired, you can loose your membership. It's also not ok to come to one's own initiation in such a state that it is doubtful that the experience will have any OTO significance. Most of the problems in the harm area come from violent confrontations, theft or disruptive conduct to the extent that OTO meetings cannot proceed and the person involved refuses to either settle down or leave the place. It's also ok to discuss drugs and their use, so long as "true confessions" and direct advocacy for personal use aren't the highlights. With regard to sex, upper OTO degree practices are private. Sex with minors and mentally impared is not OK. Sex with consenting adults is good, so long as "consent" includes informed consent. We don't cater orgies, but some OTO places do have an interest and opportunity for some members on the side. Some OTO places do not. Illegal activity closes OTO locations, on the side or down the middle. OTO has expelled members for soliciting people met at OTO occasions to engage in drug distribution, even if not done in an OTO context. OTO has also expelled members for long-term loosing it by self abuse with drugs, mostly alcohol. Although OTO individual officers and members are on record as advocating changes in the laws of the land to make more substances legal, OTO itself cannot do that under the laws governing US tax exemption. Bill Heidrick wants to see pot and raw opium legal &c. The OTO Treasurer General has to shut up about it. 93 93/93 Bill Heidrick, not writing as OTO TG. From thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Mon May 26 07:49:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from kudonet.com by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA22588; Mon, 26 May 1997 07:49:03 -0700 Received: from bitsy.hollyfeld.org by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA04964; Mon, 26 May 1997 08:00:08 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA25037 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 10:46:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from stv (stv.steinberg.de [195.21.213.34]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25034 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 10:46:14 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!) Date: Mon, 26 May 97 16:47:50 +0100 x-sender: rodney@mail.steinberg.de x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Rodney Orpheus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org content-length: 1621 Status: RO 93 >From: John Everall, john.sentrax@mail.ndirect.co.uk >>this is now a taboo in COTO, it appears, what with the rennovation of the >>people who engaged these illegal (and I'd suggest that is the main problem >>with it, its illegality) activities. >Frankly, I am astonished that COTO takes such an attitude. Is the above >correct? Illegal substances are not allowed at offical OTO events, simply because they are illegal, and the Order has no desire to see large numbers of its members go to prison. Many police forces have used the excuse of drug possession in order to harass or imprison undesirable elements in the past, and the OTO is certainly considered undesirable in most communities. Furthermore, the OTO does not allow any of its initiation rituals to be performed when one of the officers or the candidate is intoxicated or otherwise not in a state of full consciousness. These ceremonies are complex and require concentration on the part of the officers and the taking of serious decisions on the part of the candidate. A clear head is essential in this context. Outside of that, if it is the Will of someone to consume mind-altering substances, that's their business. I think the majority of people in the Order (whatever their position) agree that it can be very useful and enlightening. I think many would *also* agree that it can be very crippling too. There's no question that some people have had their capacity to live freely impaired by addiction, Crowley among them by his own admission. It depends on who you are and what you take. As always, DWTW. 93 93/93 Rodney From thelema93-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Mon May 26 17:45:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from kudonet.com by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01188; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:45:30 -0700 Received: from bitsy.hollyfeld.org by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA09980; Mon, 26 May 1997 17:56:32 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id UAA28325 for thelema93-l-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 20:30:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from mx2.io.com (mx2.io.com [206.224.95.72]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28322 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 20:30:05 -0400 Received: from dialup-03-035.austin.io.com (dialup-03-035.austin.io.com [199.170.91.35]) by mx2.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01374 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 19:40:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199705270040.TAA01374@mx2.io.com> X-Sender: patrik@mail.io.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:30:41 -0500 To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org From: Patrick Crumhorn Subject: Re: Sex/Drugs/RnR (Re: Too bad OTO isn't into sex 'n drugs!) Sender: owner-thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org content-length: 2470 Status: RO 93. At 03:51 PM 5/26/97, Bill Heidrick wrote: >Gore spoke for fundraising at a Buddhist temple. In any event, aside from >this, OTO has members in all degrees of nearly all political persuasions. >This is not our primary focus. Even if we could get away with it, it would >be a deviation from our purpose and would also be yet another matter in >which we interfere with the private inclinations of the members. It was >very difficult with the Yugoslavian war, since we had substantial numbers >of members in the different break-away republics as well as in Serbia. Hmmmm....interesting. Though, IMHO, advocacy of the principles espoused in Liber OZ does not seem like it should offend the membership of an organization such as the OTO. A stand against laws that create "victimless crimes" is not of the same mold as a sectarian stand in an ethnic or political conflict or war. Advocating the abolishment of victimless crime laws doesn't affect anyone's private inclinations, really, unless those inclinations are to interfere with the will of others. The late, lamented Bill Hicks had a hilarious routine about the Supreme Court ruling that flag-burning is constitutional. "What? The court says we have to burn our flags?!?!" "No, no, they simply said you can't *stop* someone from burning their *own* flag." "Nope, they said we have to burn our flags!! My God!!" Likewise, advocating drug legalization in no way implies a call for compulsory use of drugs, and legalizing prostitution forces no one to be dragged screaming and kicking to a mandatory session at a brothel. This seems so self-evident that I'm always amazed when our breed of Texas "conservatives" can't grasp the idea. I *do* get your point about the unequal enforcement issue, though. It comes down to how much an individual, a group, or a Thelemic Order is willing to compromise in order to exist within a barbaric society. It's a hard call. Gotta respect the Church of the Sub-Genius for their stance, though. They thought about tax-exempt status early on, but decided against it for the reasons you outline above. Their stand is "dammit, we pay our taxes, and we can say whatever the hell we want to in return." ;-) 93 93/93 Patrick Patrick Crumhorn patrik@io.com http://www.io.com/~patrik/ It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you
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