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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.revolution,alt.anarchy
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333))
Subject: Thelemic Society
Date: 24 Jul 1999 01:44:21 -0700

49990329 IIIom 

do what you please.

a correspondent wrote:
# As for people in a Thelemic society not being subject to servitude 
# it depends on how  you see servitude.  I was suggesting that if 
# all members of such a society were living their True Wills they 
# would be free.  

"free" is an ambiguous characterization. servitude is a consequence
of not living by the Law.


# If you are not free doing your Will, when are you?  However, as 
# Xenda'ths has pointed out,  servitude could be someone's Will, 
# leaving them in the paradoxical state of being both free and yet 
# in servitude.

'in servitude' usually implies a lack of freedom.

 
# I like Xenda'ths's suggestion because it extends the idea of 
# freedom from a superficial social domain to include the whole 
# of a person's consciousness.

freedom is an experience that may or may not be dependent upon
external constraints.
 

a different correspondent asks if the previous is saying that:
# ...a Thelemic society would do what Christian society has always 
# done: squash, assimilate and convert everything non-Thelemic?

'Christian' implies religious litmus based on sectarian notions.
'Thelemic' indicates a certain code and character of behavior
which implies political standards (usually unspecified).

 
# ...the problem of intolerance.  A religion that defines itself 
# primarily on the basis of homogenization of the population (and 
# I think we could imagine a very homogeneous Thelemic/O.T.O. 
# society) ought to be considered extremely undesirable--no matter 
# which one it is....

this is the problem with 'Thelema as religion'. such would be the
death of the Thelemic Current. Thelema is a religious philosophy
with implications (usually not detailed or thoroughly considered).


# Doing Resh, wearing black robes and turbans, consenting to 
# degree initiation oaths....

these are the skin of the pineapple.  they protect and carry the 
fruit to its destination but are not the fruit itself. Thelema
is not a specific societal construct or set of behavioral
constants by which a Thelemite may be identified.


# ...the problem of determining what exactly a Thelemic society 
# might be, and defining a diagnostic or rubric of assessment 
# by which we might look at a person or group or society and say:
# "Hey, that's pretty darned Thelemic!"  

objectively verifiable: if it supports individualism without
the expense of violating another's orbit.


# OR  "Damn, you're not being
# Thelemic--you're going downtown for Thelemification!"

those who do not accept the Law are doomed to servitude.
they cannot be 'Thelemified' except to realize the truth
of anarchistic and ecological political systems.


# One thing that stands out in all these discussions is that 
# "Thelemic" appears to be a term that defies objective 
# (intersubjective) delineation.

it is qualitatively described from the outside, as are those
who represent its finest manifestations. it cannot be defined
except with respect to what it refrains from doing and what
general principles it contains.

the 93 Current

	THELEMA	
	individualism and local politics culminating in 
	 anarchistic ideals

	AGAPE
	ethics of compassion and charity culminating in
	 ideals associated with Buddhist 'ahimsa' or an
	 enlightened perspective on the Wiccan Rede.

these principles are given expression in the works of many
authors, but those who are most cogent and complete are
those who focus on one with both in mind (revising our
notions of what politics and ethics should include such as 
Schumacher (particularly his model of Buddhist economics
in _Small is Beautiful_) and Elgan (especially his description
of personal responsibility in _Voluntary Simplicity_), and
ecological anarchists such as Murray Bookchin (whose works
_Which Way for the Ecology Movement?_ and _The Ecology of
Freedom_ constitute at *least* prototypes from a politcal
perspective coincident with Thelemic ideals if not 
convincing manifestos of their own. 


# What appears Thelemic to one will appear manipulative or 
# lazy to another, or from another perspective, and we can't 
# really even know in ourselves if our own actions are Thelemic.  

a quick means of diffusing the entire Thelemic Current is by
playing on the 'unknowable' theme to the detriment of taking
any action whatever. that the correct act is CONTEXT- as well
as PERSONALLY-driven and therefore never circumscribed to
simplistic norms does not negate the system of ethics itself.



# I think that Perseverando's "Little Red Riding Hood" example 
# below clearly illustrates the issue (and Karma can be 
# interchanged for Will in this example):

Perseverando:
# > This concept borders on the slippery subject of Karmic debt,
# > and all that is entailed in facing such situations. Say I am
# > strolling down a forest path and witness a man raping a young 
# > girl at gunpoint.  What should I do? 

faulty premise #1 -- that you 'should' do something, rather than
what you COULD do that would fit into Thelemic ideals. you should
do whatever is your will (Thelema). you could attempt to stop the 
rape (Agape).
 

# > Do I jump in the fray and risk getting shot and killed by the
# > rapist, thus adding to his Karma and robbing my wife of her 
# > husband and my son his father, thereby affecting their Karma?? 

I don't follow the substitution of 'Karma' for 'Will' here. the
true will is not craftable, but is instead a moving intentionality
wave driven by the configuration of the cosmos. to define it is
foolhardy, to try to shape and craft it is laudable, but probably
rather inescapably useless. it is more rational to ascertain the
tendencies of an individual's will instead (most profitably so
ascertained by the individual hirself) and then aspire to them.


# > Am I interfering with the Will and Karma of both Stars, 
# > rapist and victim? And what is my Karma should I walk
# > away? 

the true will is a present-centered reality-generator. that which
is your true will is that which you do. if it is not your true
will to stop the rape then you may endanger yourself by trying to
stop it. if it is your true will to die in defense of the weak
then you will die trying but fail in your conceptual objective.

the only way to know in the present is to tune into the cosmos 
and come to know your place in it. the only way to know in the
past is to look back and see what happened.

'Karma' fails the substitution here because it implies a moral
assessment or repercussion system which does not exist as far
as I can tell (exception being psychologically with respect to
the generation of a fictitious 'self' that never changes; cf.
the best reproductions of Buddhist instructions concerning the
nature of the self and the principle of 'anatman').


# > Does my subconscious let me sleep? 

this is more a matter of self-understanding and discipline.


# ...of what value and within what context is the concept of Thelema
# "useful?"  AND  How do we "apply" Thelema?

within personal experience and societal dynamics.

 
# 1. We cannot determine for certain our own True/Pure Will, 
# though it appears that some eventually attain to psychological 
# states of comfort with certain convictions and assumptions.

certainty in action is of sufficient value that intellectual
certainty pales by comparison. the former may be attained,
the latter is not possible.


# 2. We cannot know or verify the Will of others.

incorrect. such verification is the domain of the physical sciences.


# 3. Thelema prohibits interfering in what we cannot know about 
# others.  

there is no prohibition, only recommendations against going outside
our due orbits. the cost of so doing can be egregious.


# It also prohibits avoiding what we cannot know about ourselves.  
# If we think about this at all, we will be paralyzed.

presuming nihilistic premises such as 1, 2 and the above, surely
you will be led to paralysis. this is the benefit of meditation
and martial arts (east and west, the latter being magical rites).


# 4. OZ implies that we are free to do whatever we may be our 
# will (though we cannot know what it is)

Liber Oz is a foundation document in the establishment of a
political group, protecting the individual against that group
in the way that the Bill of Rights does for the individual in
the US and other documents do in modern democracies of various
configuration. it is limited in its scope and does not
constitute a 'license to do whatever we may'.


# 5. Certain Thelemic organizations legislate certain dogmas, 
# disciplines, political structures and rituals as intrinsically 
# related to the manifestation of Thelema.

'Thelemic organization' is at worst an oxymoron, at best they
are transitionary vehicles for the liberation of humankind
which should be leading to their own disintegration and
dispersion into anarchistic nodes of inspired action.


# 6. Last, and most important, life is full of ethical decisions where we
# must, often in a split second, make decisions and act in ways that will
# definitely result in effects upon our own Will and that of others.  We
# cannot act without affecting our own destiny or the Will of others.

the combined combination of events and circumstances contributing
to the true will are usually ignored or overlooked. sometimes 
these can be intuited (especially where there are few contending
agents of change), but typically it is impossible to be certain
of the outcome (thus the profitability of the stock market --
see 'Pi' and the mystical objectives of the main character).
 

# ...and adding a supernatural/metaphysical dimension (karma and pure
# will) to what is already a complicated ethical dilemma seems in 
# my opinion only to make the decision making process that much more 
# difficult.

karma is unnecessary and unproven. it exists to control the herd.
'pure' or 'true' will operates in a personal and social model of
interaction integrating mystical dimensions. it functions on the 
basis of an underlying current, force (some contend 'destiny',
but this carries with it ghosts of inevitability), or 'way' that
can be intuited and/or inductively discovered through mystical
means. the Law of Thelema which serves as the principle of
individual action is a law of nature, an observed principle of
personal options and choice.

 
# ...Thelema cannot, at any rational level, assist us in this 
# matter [of the rape]

incorrect, the 'proper' course of action is determined by the
individual in question and the conditions which prevail. in
vulgar society this is called 'circumstantial ethics'.


# upon what DO we base those actions?  
# (for we must indeed base those actions on something)

based on the individual hirself, nothing more or less.

 
# So, we come back again to the questions,
# a) in what context or dimension is the concept of Thelema "useful?"

mostly contention, the escalating condition of humans caught in
the gravity-well of terra firma without the technical skill to
increase the yield of our energy supplies and the wisdom to
prevent the desecration of our home and mother.


# b) how do we "apply" Thelema?

on our own. self-assess, operate based on Thelemic principles.


# c) can we assess the manifestation of Thelema? What exactly 
# do we measure?  is Thelema a yes/no deal, or a quantitative 
# thing?  at what point(s) in time do we perform the assessment?  
# what are the variables and constants?  who will determine the 
# rubric by which we rate "Thelematicity?"

'manifestation of Thelema' is rather nonsense. every moment that
an individual makes choices this Law is in operation. there is
no spectrum of measurement because volition is not a dimension.
Thelema is a principle of behavior whereby we are encouraged
to attain to our most glorious results while remaining firmly
within our own orbit. the assessment (sounding) ought to be
performed whenever some disconnection from orientation becomes
reasonably possible. conflict with another is a good flag, but
not always the necessary indicator. constants are the apparent
self (actually fictitious but for social circumstances
effectively constant), the true will of this self (understood
in its wake or, with keen perception, upon action or prior
with prophetic insight), and the orbit of this self (again not
rigidly defined but discernable with an understanding of the
facts of the circumstance in question. 

the rubric by which Thelemic contention is decided is between
the individuals so contending. 'let success be thy measure.'


# d) if the answers to these questions are 
# indeterminate/indeterminable, then what should we DO?

n/a. they are determinable on an individual basis and perhaps
through the mechanism of small groups in anarchistic compounds.
the human world is headed for massive reconstruction over the
course of the next few hundred years. the kind of 'freedom'
(i.e. to oppress, exploit and generally waste) which is the
license of the burgoise is of limited lifespan and will come
crashing down around all our ears unless we put something into
its place which is of superior mettle and dynamic.  

as always in any case, our best bet is to follow our heart.

love is the law.

blessed beast!
333
nagasiva@luckymojo.com 
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