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To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nigris (333)) Subject: "Initiated" Perspectives and Thelema 49990720 IVom Hail Avalokitesvara! Hail Satan! correspondent A: # Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The word of Sin is Restriction. expect it everywhere, be surprised when you don't find it. uncited: #>#> I have been in OTO for 15 years and have never seen any #>#> "non-OTO" thelemites treated badly by the OTO. correspondent B: #> [A], he is right. perhaps he was closing his eyes. hello [B], it is my pleasure to make your acquaintance. #> We were even polite to the guy who told us that the CIA #> made him resurrect the dead when he was 11. LOL! # I commend the fact that you were polite to an individual such # as this And what of Mathias, or Mr. Fernee, or perhaps Ashton_V, # who seem to have had bad experiences? the (c)OTO contains many immature, fallible human beings. we might as well admit it and be done with it. mistakes have been made, the people volunteering or drafted for the jobs were in some cases not adept at either problem-solving or dispute resolution. in at least a few cases serious bungling appears to have taken place. # I believe they've expressed the problems which have occurred on # multiple occasions. I think this type of experience is more likely in elitist organizations in which the degree of involvement is presumed to be linked to "spiritual mastery". the expectations surrounding those who carry out administrative business are inevitably over- estimated as ladder-climbing and badge-wearing become endeavors of some portion of membership. this was one of the reasons that LaVey said he changed the Church of Satan and inspired Aquino and those who formed the Temple of Set to flee in disgust: he didn't want the organization developing THIS elitism and was more comfortable describing a direct connection between WORLDLY power and membership ranking. this upset the spiritualists and ladder-climbing socialites. #> if [one] has had a bad experience, one should address the parties #> involved and attempt resolution. unless it reflects poorly on an organization as a PATTERN OF MEMBERSHIP MISHANDLING, in which case it should become known to all who are approaching the organization: "Caution, this group of people may contain overblown louts and miscreants!" #> [A], can you explain every nuance of your perspective? ? # No, but I can try to do so without resorting to "It's an initiated # perspective; you'd never understand." oh Reverend, you just need an interpreter! let me initiate you into the cultspeak of Thelema with your first translation (we have a batch of them in 'Broken Links' online somewhere; I'll dig them up and post them if you ask): WHEN THEY SAY: I cannot explain, it is beyond your Grade. WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN IS: I don't have the capacity to explain, being an ass-kisser without a well-rounded education. # ...I do reasonably expect an attempt to back up statements with # reasonably authoritative answers. this expectation will not be met by those who shift behind their "oaths of secrecy" in order to conceal their ignorance, folly, and immaturity, simultaneously trying to make you look wrong or insufficiently connected/advanced/etc. to have the privilege of their vaunted information. this is one of the reasons that I oppose such secrecy (because it is severely misused outside the context of real emergencies). # ...where my concern ultimately lies is in the fact that those # who have had bad experiences are told generally that: # # (1) It isn't a big deal. "Get over it" # (2) "I've had good experiences, and yours are less important than mine." # (3) "I don't care, or don't believe you." # # What is fraternal about ignoring the pain or problems experienced # by those you would call brothers and sisters? two answers, the first somewhat farcical and ironic: as brothers fight ye! many within the occult community are social misfits. we don't always develop the social amenities necessary for polite and open discussion about ourselves or our involvements. I am quite shy, for example, offline, and do not enjoy vying for sonic supremacy amongst a flock of squaking 'adepts'. the "it isn't a big deal, get over it" school of hard knocks is commonly presented within "wisdom-oriented" power-monger cults. these are by and large male and often include 'white' males (age varies but I'd guess membership probably centers between 19 and 34). some of these organizations grow up, many of its members may never do so, however. sensitivity, vulnerability, love, compassion, in short agape may be discussed occasionally, but seldom do those who talk about it understand its deeper imports, being more prone to choose desensitization and the marginalization of the weak in favor of manly shows of discipline than to demonstrate how kind and considerate we can be to the inquisitive and/or idiotic. the 'my good experiences are more important than your bad ones' are just ignorant and nonsensical. these miss the point of bringing up the issue and serve to demonstrate the depth of cultishness that surrounds the group ('always defend the Herd against critics'). those who say we don't care or don't believe you seem to me at least a bit more *honest*, if less honorable. if given some real reason to consider the testimony sincere, such a statement seems to betray a self-willed blindness and lack of introspection which might be found amongst the lowest levels of a truly Thelemic org, but which should never be allowed in its decision-making echelon. but the real reason for ignoring the pain or problems of one's brothers and sisters is because one is incapable of dealing with it, due to one's immaturity and lack of genuine love. Reverend, all manner of individual will be found at a variety of levels in occult and mystical organizations such as the (c)OTO. do not be too surprised at the type of 'fraternal' squabbling and vitriol heaved this way and that. this is, contrary to what some of these squabbling kindred may indicate, some of the "work" of membership: to practice 'Thelemic conflict resolution' and come to mature relationships with those of differing background and character. as with any skill one practices, the best way to learn is to fail and try again. as membership realizes its failure, so it may learn. #> [A], it is not justification, how could I possibly explain #> sight to the blind? Think about it! It cannot be done. 'those with eyes to see will know the truth!' this religious babble can be used to justify ANYTHING as 'beyond your Grade'. remember the translation I offered above. # ...I can see; I've been there, and am a member. too quick to fall for the bait! the follow-up is 'if you can see, then you will not need me to explain!' #> It IS an intiated perspective, but not just OTO intiations, #> there were others, and if you were not there, I cannot tell #> you what they were like. what perspective based on experience is NOT 'initiated'? what sets an "initiated" perspective apart from a "non-initiated" perspective? does 'initiated' necessarily mean 'ineffable'? if so, why? we cannot all take part in one another's experiences. # Yes, but the constant references to "an O.T.O. perspective" # makes me wonder what it is. If it can't be defined, then # how is it a perspective in the first place? your question is really answered by this: I don't have the capacity to explain, being an ass-kisser without a well-rounded education. all manner of cultspeak will be brought before you to cover over a fundamental lack of study, comprehension, and awareness. this will be enshrouded in a robe of authority so as to inspire within you the proper respect each of these 'initiates' wishes you to delegate to us even though we may know in our hearts we are undeserving. #> Example, can you make me feel the perspective you had when #> you lost your virginity? easily defined words. 'virginity' implies a lack of sexual experience. I can describe to you what my first sexual experiences were like, what happened, and how I felt. if you are talking about a level of communication BEYOND this, then your words may apply to all descriptions of experience and be unimportant to our consideration. #> No, because I am female and you are male, I wouldn't #> understand what it was like/what you felt/etc... I don't follow this logic. you could understand the words, might even be able to imagine yourself in his place. there is a commonality of human sexual experience, emotions, and much other shared data from which you might draw. denying you can describe it without trying just displays your reticence or inability to do so. #># And as I've asked repeatedly over the last few weeks: #># what constitutes being "in it"? Reverend, there is no absolute answer to this, as I hope I have made clear. there is only a kaleidoscope of flimsy words people use to make ourselves appear grand without sufficient cause. #> At the risk of seeming sarcastic: If you have to ask, #> you are not in it. or at least he does not understand what YOU mean by this. #> Simple, succinct and to the point. but no closer to describing what you mean. # So then, I suppose I'm not. Time to toss those oaths out # the window, and ignore the pledges of fraternity, that # paid dues receipt in my drawer, or the Agapes that keep # getting sent to me. come now, you could be a member of some *other* org (say, the "MMM") and not really the OTO at all. all the oaths, pledges, dues and agapes would still apply but the membership in any particular org would not. you could be 'out of it' without being 'out of everything'. # I suppose then I should withdraw from participation in # the community, which one? have we determined this yet? seems ambiguous as I enter into the conversation (admittedly after having deleted most beyond your posts, Reverend :>). # and from anything related to this organization, as in # your canonical view, I am not in it. "canonical"? LOL! she isn't the Supreme and Holy Pontiff, is she? know the authority of those with whom one is speaking! of course you were probably being sarcastic, but I'm addressing you both seriously. #> And you wouldn't be trying to perpetuate that, would #> you [A]? I seem to detect a bit of resentment coming #> from "you" to "us". Comment? # Actually, I'm trying to establish a more balanced perspective # than "This is fucking great!" or "You are all poseurs; the # REAL O.T.O. isn't here!" both perspectives are accurate, Reverend. it is fucking great to be a member of (c)OTO. and we are all poseurs. balancing this is the opportunity of a lifetime and can best be accomplished, I think, by dedicated and consistent introspection. # What I find fascinating is the groupthink which seems to believe # that one cannot be "of us" and question the status quo or the # situation. There isn't any resentment here, just amazement # that there appears to be an undercurrent of outright hostility # towards any member who admits to imperfect treatment within the # cult. now you're talking. suddenly you're one of US (the anti-cultists in the 'Thelemic' org). it is far worse than this, though I do not yet sense with my very limited feelers that this cultishness extends up into the entire upper echelon of the pyramidal hierarchy. those who ask questions are sometimes ostracized if the questions are not timed or phrased properly. respect for one's elders may be a prerequisite for continued admittance to the body of believers. it varies considerably from body to body as I understand it. in public you'll meet up with all manner of fanatic and saint. #> ...if folks are looking here to decide whether or not they #> want to join the OTO, they are making a mistake. why is that? I would think that the type and level of discussion by Order members here would be indicative of important information about the quality of membership, of course supplemented by direct interactions with said members and investigations of the org and its secrets. # ...I would probably recommend they spend some time on it to # understand what they're potentially getting themselves into. so would I. #> This list is not the OTO, does not represent the OTO, is not #> even remotely connected to the OTO (it's a Thelema list, #> not an OTO list) why isn't there an OTO email list? T93-L is connected to the (c)OTO in that at any time several initiates of said organization may be posting to it. beyond this I agree. #> and I personally would not recommend anyone to this list who #> is trying to decide about joining! why not? # I'd recommend it in a heartbeat; it establishes that it is not all fun, # games, sweetness and light, and that there is dissention, there is # harassment, there are problems, et al, amidst the potential gains of # membership. All too often it's presented from an unbalanced perspective, # and I believe that leads to members expecting too much and attendant # burnout and negativity. I agree strongly here. #> Rather they should contact the OTO. which one?? so many choices! inside and outside!! # I'd recommend just that, as well as reading King, readig # Koenig's page, and thinking about what it is that they # may be getting themselves involved in. isn't it a characteristic of the cult that its members do not wish those who are considering membership in it to get outside data as it may 'unfairly bias' the mark? no matter how reliable or unbiased these outsiders may be, instead it is better to go the cult's leadership for the 'truth'. does 'contact the OTO' mean talk with Order members? if so, can these members be contacted in T93-L? can their activities be a reflection of the quality of the organization? if not, why not? there's got to be something more rational than 'here, put on these rose-coloured glasses and dedicate your life to me and my cult!' in a 'Thelemic' organization. what could it be? blessed beast! nigris (333)
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