a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.moderated,alt.magick.order,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@HOUSEOFKAOS.ABYSS.COM (nigris (333))
Subject: Secrecy and Thelema
Date: 17 Nov 1996 00:53:00 -0800

[technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness]

kaliyuga (your time)
49960105 lunatix full

The questions I'd ask to turn this toward 'Thelema' include: is secrecy in
the sense of occulting texts for the purposes of cementing social groups
'Thelemic'?   Despite my noisiness I think it is.

|What do you consider would be "important aspects of secrecy..."? 

... in the establishment of organizations."  Well, I'd say that for one
it protects the potential initiate from exposure to rites she may or may
not be wanting to see.  Some claim it is necessary to protect the 
innocent, but I am unsure how to or if I want to assess another's 
maturity in this way.

There are other reasons, such as protection of a group-owned asset
(an important legal maneuver I think) in the form of hidden doctrines or
signs, which are still very important in (at least Western) governments 
and military establishments ('passwords', 'secret codes', etc.).

I also think that there should be a trade, supporting the ability of 
a group to maintain its privacy as a type of personal ego (secrecy), 
in exchange for the rights of citizens to worship in any way they so 
choose, barring violence and coersion, but that's another issue. :>

|Can we do magick without orders?  

I think it would be unwise to intentionally break them up, and I see
a great many values being served through the support of magical orders.
I wouldn't count them as absolutely necessary, only cherished and/or
desired by their members.

| you mean, fix yourself and the universe will provide?  I'm
|schocked to hear you say that, mu.

No, build a house on a firm foundation, that's all.  One can't help
others or even satisfy one's desires without resolving survival
issues adequately.  Maslow wrote about this in his hierarchy of needs.

|>Consider also the possibility that you have simply never been trained
|>in or learned the language of the Art, and therefore miss important cues
|>and offerings.  

|...What's the "language of the Art"?

In part, metaphor.  In part a peculiar way of thinking which is a type of
projection *beyond* the texts or vocal instruction, this could lead to the 
a kind of 'jam' with the complexity of one's life and move into a 
different experience entirely.  

But in general I have heard a great many people ascribe the texts of 'sex 
magick' or 'alchemy' of various sorts with a certain 'mystical meaning' 
which may be only derived from knowing the symbolic association 'keys',
and these function as a type of 'lock' which dissuades the merely curious 
and confounds the fool or innocent.  

It is said that they are placed upon materials so as to protect the 
'current' of the magick from encounter with violation as well as to protect 
the reader from serious harm.

|And where can one get that if one is solitary?

Revelation, reading enough books which describe parables (thus the value
of the Western religious scripture).  Through computers. :>

|Are the oaths disclosed before one takes them when joining an order?

I think it may be a serious mistake to swear oaths at all, unless it is 
your will and you can benefit thereby.  If they weren't disclosed, then
whether they are acknowledged at all may be at issue.  Serious cult-like
organizations could develop (and have!) and it is possible that coersion
could make this a dangerous enslavement tool.  

I have joined an Order without knowing the oaths beforehand, though I was 
later told that I could have seen the ritual text of the oaths prior to 
the rites.  As it turned out I didn't need to do that (I didn't swear 
anything which I felt restricts behaviors I would not already have chosen, 
though I must admit my interpretations of terms and contexts was, I have 
heard, not that of the Official Interpretation, so beware -- heheheh).

|>Face it, we live in a repressed world.  You and I and the 'true
|>Thelemites' can set the example and exchange information right out in
|>the open under their noses until those who can stand to tread the borders
|>of their oaths will join our cause and throw the secrecy-mongers into
|>relief.  Until then we might as well learn to understand our brothers
|>and sisters as they take what precautions they feel to be necessary.

|That's very nice, though I would be interested in finding out how you 

|can do that while forming an established order.  

It is the objective of established orders to conceal objects to
preserve the integrity of their group ego and illusory superiority.
It forms the basis of a sort of elitist self-propping, and it can
be both the most hilarious joke while at the same time a sacred and
moving environment.

It is very simple for an Order to become established.  One writes a
document which one thinks to be valuable, especially concerning
something in demand, and then one conceals this from the public and
makes condition of membership a requirement for disclosure.  

There can be several layers to this, but if there is some sort of hoop-
system (initiations, studies, master-slavery-relationships, etc.),
then it will keep the information secret long enough to make it
unimportant how many people know the information but are still
interested in the author's text (popular authors make more lively
Order initiates for this reason).

There are lots of other ways to have such orders (conceal anything
except information), even sacred objects, relics, 'power objects',
previous Order member's body parts, etc., etc.  There is just such
a great deal of focus on information and knowledge that it short-
circuits our brains and we can't figure out what we might wish to
do aside from submit in order to *discover* (tear off that veil!).

We might not always want what's behind that veil.

|The examples I have seen in the past, and somewhat in the present indicate 

Name one Order whose works they desired to have 'under wraps' have been 
published out in the open contrary to these desires (beyond the GD stuff, 
whatever you take it to be).   I gathered the technique of occulting texts
has been fairly effective.  

The ideas are not as important as the text itself, and all Orders 
eventually turn over materials from previous generations for the perusal 
of their progeny (even if it wasn't all that important or well-written). 

We're talking about social groups which rely on the power of the law and 
their ability to make private texts as a partial incentive for group
assimilation.   The technique isn't very sophisticated, but what must
accompany this tactic is an attraction mechanism which inspires people
to want to see the documents anyway or belong to the organization due to
its prestige/purposes/affiliations/etc.

|If you can come up with a model of non-secrecy occult order, 
|I'd be very interested in seeing it.

I think by now you can see what I mean by this.  The model could be any
way you wanted about it.  In some way you just make it known among the
membership that they cannot share the 'Order materials' that one gets
as a benefit of such membership (as the ToS does).  The information 
may be shared as desired.  Even COTO is this way, to my knowledge, though
who knows what the OHO is going to decide next. ;>

Only the specific texts are controlled (see the AA's gradation schema
and add 'O#' for 'Occulted' with # dependent upon the level of initiate
that is allowed to possess such documents.  The rest depends on access
controls to the documents themselves and verification of integrity
and honesty of the incoming membership (through personal interaction;
anybody can be a member, but only those who are secure will be allowed
to obtain 'occult materials'.  

The individual documents associated with the degrees can shift and change
over time, and some can shift until a popular text has locked in and then
play until all degree slots are formalized and the Order becomes to take
on an 'aged' character (perhaps we can specify a spectrum of Orderly age
based on the rigidification of elements such as secret texts and ritual
signs and grips, etc.

|I suggest also looking at some yoni worship.Try Tyagi's page.  I'm sure mu
|can give you the URL on here.


|Any on Yoni worship?  You know you need both to do good sex magick.  

Well, some don't.  Priaps, I guess, at *least*. ;>

nigris (333)
see  and  call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!!
 ----  (emailed replies may be posted)  ----  CC public replies to email  ---- 
 * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cuckaracha Humana * * * 

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races