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Organizations and Thelema

To: thelema93-l now
From: (nigris (333))
Subject: Organizations and Thelema 

50000130 IVom Hail Babalon!

correspondent A wrote:
> Every number is infinite; there is no difference.

Help me, o warrior lord of Thebes, in my unveiling before 
the Children of men!
correspondent A wrote:
> > > I think it's more appropriate to talk about enslaving one's
> > > self, rather than having a slave god.

> "nigris (333)" wrote:
> > valuable to speak of how the Agents promote the Slave Gods
> > for their benefit.

> Why is that valuable? I mean, sure it's valuable to talk about the
> methods they use, but your focus seems much more to the effect of
> demonizing organizational approaches in general. 

all organizations promote slave gods. the Agents are propagandizing
their particular org at the expense of truth and the individuals
who listen to their rhetoric inevitably suffer at their hands. 
> > > It's a question of whether the "raver" in question actually
> > > becomes a slave to it.
> > 
> > naw, the Agents of the Slave Gods are usually not quite slaves
> > to the ecclesiastical machine. their Supervisors to keep the
> > Herd in line.
> But who cares about the Agents? 

it is the duty of the Revolutionary of each and every organization
to focus critical scrutiny upon the administrative authority of
the organization in question. some of us take on more than this
responsibility and become Revolutionaries for entire cultures.

> It's not them who actually make slaves.

contribution to ignorance is an integral element of obscurantism.

> Only the slaves can do this to themselves. As you have pointed 
> out, it's important to note the ways in which Agents might 
> seduce the unwitting. It seems that most of the thrust of your 
> arguments on this is in castigating the Agents, rather than 
> empowering those who might be enslaved.

then you must fill in the gap for me if you do not see me doing
it. do not expect that I will play ALL of the roles necessary in
the liberation of human and other species. I think if you watch
me long enough you may see hints of my empowerment. I tend to 
do this latter in the background where you can't see it, or in
later phases of adversarial grappling, however. ;>
> > > Can you elaborate on what you are talking about when you 
> > > say "Agent?"
> > 
> > priests of the ecclesiastic hierarchy driving the cult.
> Huh... so all of these priests are guilty of being Supervisors 
> of the Herd, as you call it? 

'guilty'? unsure, but this is their role, yes.
> > > But again, isn't the decision to become a subject in the 
> > > hands of the worshipper? That being the case, it seems 
> > > more appropriate to recognize the enslavement that has 
> > > occurred as a function of the worshipper, not the god.
> > 
> > the problem with this is that it isn't a conscious, full-
> > fledged "decision". more like a dream-choice.
> Is there a difference, in regards to responsibility?

oh verily, kindred! for the ignorant are not so responsible as
those with knowledge of the mysteries. this is why there are
oaths of binding upon those who are exposed to these mysteries
for their maturation. when the ready have knocked, then they
should be allowed to enter the Elect should they have the 
courage and ability to do so.
> > >> I like:
> > >>
> > >>         Thou shalt have no gods before Me.

> ...Can you elaborate on interpreting it in the context of 
> liberation?

'Me' implies both the speaker (e.g. some Nazarene) AND/OR the
Grand Imposter, the Cosmic Person, the Macrocosmic Self.
> > ...this project is more like a group of people who decide 
> > to take advantage of a running pyramid scheme without
> > giving away the secret. 
> Yeah, like Amway only nobody knows it's a pyramid scheme, 
> right? Sounds like a big waste of time. Who benefits, and 
> what do they get out of it?  Certainly not money!

the currency of the New Aeon: attention. sometimes prestige,
a semblance of authority, also contribute to the 
> > some who benefit may not understand
> > it, others who understand it may believe it is 'for the best',
> > but the deception (pretense to knowledge based on scrupulous
> > methods) continues unabated, and its repercussions, when so
> > emphasized (inculcated, dogmatically proselytized, inspired
> > to cultism), are indeed evil for their restrictive qualities.
> about methods in a general sense? For example, 
> how might your garden variety EGC priest perpetuate this? 

describe, despite any advice to the contrary, the Gnostic Mass
as the New Aeonic Official Ritual, or the authority of this
religious organization as somehow exalted, transcendent, or
pertinent to any outside it and functionally.

> Specifically? What policies do they enforce which help
> the Babalonian Vampirism Project along?

individuals, moreso than organizations perpetuate this
project. for evidence, consult the t93-l email list of late
and the various contenders for 'Thelemic authority',
whether this be "masonic", "esoteric", "magical", or other
styles of authority. all of it distracts us from looking at
how an individual can ascertain and adhere to hir true will.
does the routinizing of ritualism truly assist this?
> > >> and yes I do think that the project is capable of distracting
> > >> Thelemites from perceiving their true will and becoming a
> > >> sink of vampiric power within the Herd. this is why I have
> > >> attempted to identify it as having this potential.
> > >
> > > And I applaud you for speaking out against such practices.
> > > But again, I think it makes more sense and adds credibility
> > > to your argument if you point your finger at the enslaved,
> > > [rather] than the masters.
> > 
> > and confuse the Herd all the more? no, I'd rather play the
> > Revolutionary and be branded 'heretic' and 'outcaste' by some
> > and 'visionary' and 'prophet' or 'messiah' by others. that is
> > my role as a Satanist.
> Wow. Careful, I think your ego might be getting a few paces 
> ahead of reality. 

how can you tell? where does the reality leave off and I begin
where authority is concerned? THESE are the exact types of
issues that I see org-members promote as if they are Absolute
Truths and I find it valuable to challenge them strongly,
publically, and demonstrate their fallacy.

> You're a far cry from getting any of those esteemed titles 
> (as far as I'm concerned anyway). 

ah but this presumes the titles are "given" rather than they
are adopted and 'fit into'. sometimes donning clothes into
which one WISHES to fit will lead to growing into them. taking
on exalted titles is one of the important magical disciplines
THEIR OWN LEGITIMACY (as well as identify those within its
structure as its Agents). 

the Celestial Masters (aka AA, TOKUS, etc.) need not consult
terrestial organizations or individuals in order to encourage
their students to take up titles of grandeur, station, and 

> You need to be more specific and suggest
> solutions first.

I don't feel such a need, but I'm doing my best to answer your
very well-considered questions.
> > already we can see the
> > "thelema equals God's will not yours" camp surfacing, with
> > "your true will has nothing to do with what you want" hot
> > on its heels, 
> Right. I'm pretty sure Crowley made these interpretations as 
> well. ...

not in his 'Commentary'. all interpretations are correct, if
but the interpreter be 'illuminated'. Crowley had it aright
in this, and tended to his egoism where his Comment borders 
on destroying what he set out to inspire in greater constructs. 
he is a strange mix, encouraging cultism after him on one hand,
encouraging doubt and classical education on the other.

> > though the nature of the Beast-Prophet makes
> > this slightly difficult to put across except to those of
> > conservative bent. 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this 
> latter part of the sentence.

Crowley's behaviour was a confluence of addiction, desire,
want, denied want, willedness, and wishing. his bigotry
and inadequate moral character cannot be approved at the
same time that the individual's comparable "whims" are
discounted. if you are going to accept 'Do What You
Please' (per Rabelais or whoever), then you're going to
have to accept the whole Id-riddled Beast, whatever
'acceptance' includes. a 'whim' may be a part of the 
true will, after all.

> > an ambiguous referent such as 'will'
> > leaves too much at the discretion of the "teachers" in the
> > movement to rely merely on the name to rest with confidence
> > that it will always convey this significance and therefore
> > support the individual thereby.
> I strongly disagree. What teacher tries to interpret "will" 
> without being immediately labeled as a center of pestilence?

those who indicate that 'Will' means 'Will of God' and then
follow this up by indicating that the Herd determines what
the moral character of this Will includes. Crowley even
points to Fichte as a source on 'will', and Fichte, like
Schopenhauer, another of Crowley's references on Thelema,
accepts Kantian premises. for Fichte these include the idea
that the Group Will ascertains the Infinite (True) Will. orgs
like (C)OTO behave in similar manner, not trying to ascertain
the individual's true will but acting on what the group
context in which it operates has determined is 'Right.'

> > that said, there is a lot of will behind fascism. a number
> > of Satanists make the mistake of equating intolerance and
> > idiocy with power, joining neo-nazi assholes in bigotted
> > antics and completely missing the individual/organization
> > relationships inherent to the problem of demonizing. 
> What's your point? Idiots exist.

willfullness on its own is insufficient as a theme describing
the nature of 'Thelema', as this will may be applied in 
directions contrary to the Law.
> > this
> > 'black brother' bogey is but a hint of that problem
> > surfacing in the 'Thelemic' community. 
> Yeah, but at least 'black brothers' are not identifiable by 
> the color of their skin or their parentage. 

you or I don't practice this, no. others might, however, and
the bigotry inherent to the writings of the Beast and certain
contexts of racism might give rise to such interpretations.

> Indeed, the definition may be so vague
> that nobody can ever agree on what one is.

I'd rather see this result than discrimination and idiocy.
> > > OK, but I think that there is a difference between wariness
> > > and prejudice. What you have demonstrated so far in this
> > > discussion seems a lot more like the later.
> > 
> > I think it is extremely beneficial to the individual to be
> > strongly prejudiced against groups and their "benefits"
> > that they offer. 
> I am unaware of any benefits offered by the OTO, aside from 
> community and fraternity....

you haven't been paying attention. there are claims of lineage
authority and the conferment of "wisdom and knowledge" from a
long list of esoteric organizations. they were being defended
recently in the t93-l email list. this was a distinct and
obvious example of the type of 'benefit' to which I was pointing.

> > too often groups (especially which have
> > as one of their requirements conformity for 'protection')
> > use individuals for their ends, chewing them up and
> > spitting them out without any real regard for their
> > welfare, blushingly explaining that 'sacrifices are
> > necessary so that the Movement may survive'. when the
> > Rules are explained and the Farmers are in place, it is
> > too late to go complaining to the sheep that the pigs in
> > the house are behaving just like the men y'all threw out
> > last week (cf. "Animal Farm", Orwell).
> ...There's no content to these claims, brother.

look around you. if you don't see to what I refer, then say
so and we can get a good barometric from your quarter. I take 
what you say as indication of the health of the order to which 
you belong.
> > LaVey had at least one thing right: his focus on "WHO GAINS?"
> Indeed. Well, who does? 

given that my aim is to see the furtherance of occult techniques
and mystical psychotechnology, the attention drawn AWAY from
these and placed on politics and social hoop-jumping, cliques, 
membership status, and the "legitimacy" of particular orgs, is
rather directly gained. eliminate these as relevant foci and
true esoteric value can once again command the attention due it.

> ...I gain from my experience with thelemic organizations. 
> Can you cite examples (hypothetical or real) where this is 
> not the case? 

examples where you do not gain from them? when your emailbox
is filled up with a variety of "Thelemites" scuffling over
whose 'OTO' is the 'One and True Org'. just a guess on my part
of course. perhaps you thrive on it. I've seen it come and go.

> I want realistic scenarios, not literary allusions.

when you wish to talk with a friend or family member who is
not a part of your secret society about some esoteric secret 
which you learned from your OTO kindred and an oath you took 
(with pre-consideration?) prevents that from being available 
to you if you wish to retain membership.
when you would like to look at esoteric mystery documents
that are assessed by your org-kindred as 'beyond your grade' 
and are therefore rendered more difficult for you to obtain.

when you are ascribed some nonpardonable offense within your
organization and expelled on account of the expressions of
those with 'administrative connections'. this last probably
hasn't happened to you (yet).

none of these are cosmic crimes, but you wished some examples.
I have been witness to most of them.

> > too often individuals throw their true power away without
> > ever understanding it. by the time they've lost it the wolves
> > have moved on to riper marks. I suggest being very careful
> > with one's time and energies and applying them with scrutiny
> > and high standards where the organization of which one may
> > choose to be a part is concerned.
> Good advice, and this is what I am looking for when it comes to
> empowering individuals as opposed to demonizing organizations.

demonizing organizations would include saying NOTHING good about
them. I have strived to suggest that they are generally not worth
the time of initiates unless they are getting something very
clear in return for what they spend in time and energy. orgs
being naturally vampiric, attention to one's relation to them is
a very important discipline of every student of the mysteries.
there are several orgs clambering for your attention and energy,
so they do get something from these. as I spend quite a bit of
time defending the demonized, I don't think my sometimes rather
strong contentions are 'demonizing'. how could someone demonizing
orgs lay claim to belonging to any without being hypocritical?
> > >> the martyrs are the epitome of devotion. one can provide of
> > >> one's time, energy, dedication, and therein exhibit a
> > >> comparable end.
> > >
> > > But that's not the issue, and I would ask that you provide some
> > > source which corroborates the idea that some saints are better
> > > than others.
> You said that the martyrs are the epitome of devotion, which 
> suggests that the bards (for example) are less devoted.

the utmost which one may provide to any destined devotional
object (be that god, spirit, loved one, guru, etc.), is one's
entirety (physical life). the bard has not yet provided the
final drop of hir all and so in this means of measurement
(percentage of one's blood, to which Crowley alluded and which
we were discussing -- Babalonian devotional metaphors), this
indicates that the bard is less devoted from our estimation.
later that bard may become a martyr, either by assessment as
to the energy expended or what 'entirety' may apply.

> > you place faith in beneficent monarchs?
> I do, until I see reason not to. I think monarchy is one of 
> the better forms of government, when it is in fact 
> beneficent. Certainly has a lower tendency for tyranny than 
> democracy does.

there is an inherent problem: transfer of power. this is the
cause of much of the abandoning of aristocratic rule as well 
as organizational in-fighting and schism (witness (C)OTO).

I am Ra-Hoor-Khuit; and I am powerful to protect my servant. 

> Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!

blessed beast!

nigris (333)

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