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To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: jake 
Subject: non-strident response to 'Gnostic Mass hoax'
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:16:55 +0100

While I am OTO I have my own problems with the Gnostic Mass, so don't
assume this response is partisan. However the accusation of 'hoax' has
some serious holes IMO. Briefly:

1. Mohammed's name must have been about the most familiar Arab word in
the entire Christian world. Any theologian (or Templar) might have
picked up a smattering of the language after the 200 years of Crusading
in Palestine that preceded the suppression of the Templars, certainly
enough to know the name of the prophet of Islam. Frederick II even had
verses of the Koran embroidered on his robes in Arabic.

2. Several Hermaphroditic images have been excavated in Europe, complete
with Arabic inscriptions and Gnostic or Occult emblems - whether these
are genuinely connected to the Templars is another matter. Certainly
those responsible had access to funds and skilled craftsmen.

3. An altar featuring a naked woman had been a feature of French 'Black
Masses' since the 1600's at least. They are thus decidedly not an
invention of Taxil.  

Genuinely old 'Gnostic' or 'Heretical' variants of the Christian Mass
are well known, and the equal role of women (and prominence of
sexuality) in some Gnostic sects and rites is equally well documented.

JSK.

The Gnostic Alchemical Church  of Typhon-Christ
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/7770/
http://members.aol.com/kiblah1/index.html


All events and institutions other than those 
portrayed in this Journal are fictitious

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From thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Fri Jun 18 17:11:09 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:40:34 +0100
To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: Cavalorn 
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax" (fwd)
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93. One comment, for now.

>        As far as i was concerned, most of the ceremony was 
>        more or less a sacralized titty show designed for the 
>        delictation of sexually repressed Victorian and 
>        Edwardian era men. 

I take it our worthy authoress is unfamiliar with the rubric which
advises the resumption of the Priestess' robe before the reopening of
the veil in 'barbarous countries'. Examples of the latter are England
and America in AC's time, as other writings demonstrate.

In short, no titty show, sacralized or otherwise.

93 93/93

Cavalorn
-- 
'There are thousands living now in our unpleasant era who have been 
forced into an ungratifying independence, who would like it well if they
might lose their useless freedom and live in intimate attachment to a 
great Mistress-Master.'                 
                                Terence Sellers, _Dungeon Evidence_
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From thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Fri Jun 18 12:22:59 1999
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Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax" (fwd)
From: "Rodney Orpheus" 
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>         Being Reflections on attendence at an OTO "Gnostic 
>         Mass (Liber XV)" Variation and Why it is Both a
>         Hoax and So Repellant to Partake of its supposed
>         "Communion."

Great title!
>
>         By Soror U First

Dear Miss First,

93

 I really enjoyed this essay on the infamous Leo Taxil fraud, but in the
interests of refuting the bad scholarship you (rightly) condemn, I feel I
must point out a few things that you may wish to alter in later versions of
your essay...
>
>         -----------------------------------------------------
>
>         In 1999 i attended a so-called Gnostic Mass held in
>         a so-called lodge of the OTO.

Ah, "so-called" - a wonderful phrase that manages to immediately condemn the
subjects without actually saying anything. The OTO has a perfect right to
call its groups Lodges, as has anyone in fact. It's a perfectly valid
English word and not trademarked. Please strike this phrase, it smacks of
prejudice.

>         As far as i was concerned, most of the ceremony was
>         more or less a sacralized titty show designed for the
>         delictation of sexually repressed Victorian and
>         Edwardian era men. I would have gone along with the
>         deal, silly though i thought it was, but i could not
>         in good conscience recite the required affirmation of
>         belief in the transubstantiation of foods and bodily
>         excreta into "Baphomet,

"And inasmuch as food and drink are transmuted in us daily into spiritual
substance, I believe in the miracle of the Mass." There's no phrase in
Gnostic Mass that says the Sacrament is transubstantiated into *anything*
much less Baphomet. I suppose one could make an argument for it, but in all
my years of performing and teaching it, I never once even thought about that
possibility until now. How strange...


> " since, as far as i know, the
>         whole "Baphomet" obsession of late 19th century
>         British and French "magical order" members is rooted
>         in naive acceptance of Eliphas Levi's bad scholarship

I could be wrong, but I think you'll find that the Baphomet style rites may
have preceded Levi within Masonic offshoots. Certainly the Knight Kadosch
rites which dealt with the supposed Templar mysteries were running as far
back as the 18th century. More research is called for here I think.

>         Levi got the word "Baphomet" from some dreadful
>         Catholic propaganda of the 1300s that had been
>         created to accuse the Christian monastic order of
>         Knights Templar of pro-Islamic sympathies by claiming
>         that they engaged in the heresy of worshipping
>         Mohammed {= Mahomet = Baphomet, a poor transliteration
>         by people unfamiliar with the Arabic language}.

Although this is *probably* true, it is by no means universally accepted as
the only possible derivation. Two other possibilities that have been put
forward are that is a corruption of "Baphe Metis" or Baptism of Wisdom, or
even that it is derived from "Bafo Methr", father Meithras (i.e. a
continuation of Roman military rites)

>         14th century Catholic propaganda had directly led to
>         the execution of all the members of the Knights
>         Templar order

Not all by any means. Only a few Templars were actually executed.

>         The ram-god of Mendes was not hermaphroditic, as
>         depicted by Levi (who was an artist as well as a
>         writer) and he was in no way associated with the
>         Islamic prophet Mohammed {= Mahomet = Baphomet}.

....

>         order of Knights Templar (there is no connection
>         between the two, since "Baphomet" is simply a
>         poor transliteration of the name of the Islamic
>         prophet Mohammed or Mahomet).

That's three times you say this. It's still not necessarily true.

>         Crowley was briefly a Mason, but his warrants came
>         from the so-called "Yarker Diploma Mill" which
>         were later withdrawn by the United Grand Lodge
>         of England. During the 1920s the OTO was sued
>         for claiming to "make Masons."

I've never heard of this suit, nor do I find it easy to believe that such a
suit would take place. The UGLE is notoriously reticent in bringing such
things into the public eye.

As it happens, the OTO *did* claim to make masons in the beginning, and the
original first three Degrees of OTO were the classic Masonic rites; but
abandoned that claim by around 1910, when many members had seceded owing to
the Order's policy of allowing female members. One of the first things
Crowley did after joining the Order was to rewrite the rituals so that they
would not conflict with Masonry. The Manifesto published in 1912
specifically states that the Order does not infringe on Masonry in any way.

I'd love to see some documentation on this so-called suit (see, I can do
that "so-called" thing too!)

As regards Crowley being a Mason, that is by no means clear-cut either. He
was never accepted as such by the UGLE, since his initiation was under the
auspices of the Grand Orient of France. Then again, your own Co-masonic
initiation falls under the same heading I believe? The validity of Yarker's
Degrees are also still the subject of heated debate amongst Masonic scholars
- see several numbers of "Quattuor Coronati".
>
>         Why would Crowley put forth such a claim?
>         Why would he call OTO meeting-places "lodges"
>         -- a word with Masonic roots, meaning the
>         workman's lean-to at a building site? Why are
>         there so many obvious thefts from both Craft
>         Masonry and the Masonic-appendant degree system
>         called The Scottish Rite in OTO initiations

Thefts? Oh dear... Well since the OTO was originally chartered to be a
Masonic research body, it's not exactly a theft. Perhaps receiving stolen
property at the very worst :-)

>         I believe that Crowley's O.T.O. and Gnostic
>         Catholic Church made these Masonic claims in
>         part because Crowley wanted to give a grounding to
>         his desired perpetuation of the Leo Taxil
>         "Masons-worship-Baphomet-and-put-naked-women-on-
>         altars" hoax

The OTO existed long before Crowley joined, as did the EGC. Neither was his
invention.

>         It could be argued that since Masonry is not a
>         religion, but the OTO is controlled by a church
>         (the EGC or Gnostic Catholic Church)

See umpteen mails from me earlier refuting this claim.

>         In support of this theory, i must digres for a
>         moment: Co-Freemasonry was founded in France during
>         the 1880s and had, by the 1900s, spread to England
>         Spain, Belgium, Brazil, India, the United States,
>         Venezuela, and other nations. It is distinguished
>         from male Masonry solely by virtue of the fact that
>         women are permitted to join;

And of course, that it is not recognised as being Masonry at all by the
UGLE.

> the accused
>         pederast C. W. Leadbeater

Hold on, do you mean, "accused and convicted", in which case say so, or do
you mean "accused and found innocent", in which case say nothing at all.

>         Membership linkages between the Liberal Catholic
>         Church and Theosophist-controlled national bodies of
>         Co-Freemasonry -- especially among the highest-
>         ranking officers -- exactly parallels the
>         membership linkages among high-ranking officers
>         in the Gnostic Catholic Church and the ruling
>         body of the OTO. The set-up is virtually identical,
>         in fact.

Fascinating. I'm sure Crowley would find this extremely funny, given his
hatred of Besant.
>
>         The OTO apparently lost the 1920s suit brought
>         against it by the Freemasons, for since that time
>         the OTO has been legally enjoined from making
>         any claims of a relationship to Freemasonry.

What? Were did that come from? As pointed out, we stopped claiming to
infringe on Masonry by 1912 at the latest. I really think you should give
documentation before throwing such claims around.

>         and in response he claimed
>         that the OTO is a "Co-Masonic Order."

Well, he can say what he wants, but that ain't what the OTO says.
>
>         I could scarcely believe this! I felt like i had
>         fallen into a time-warp. As a member of a co-
>         Masonic lodge myself, i almost burst out laughing,

Yeah, we all know that your claims to being Masonic are irrefutable, right?

>         but discretion seemed more kindly under the
>         circumstances and so i just smiled and nodded.

How awfully unpatronising of you.

>         Why did i refuse the Gnostic Mass communion?

>         Because i couldn't stand on what was alleged to
>         be sacred ground and honestly affirm my belief in
>         a transubstantiation

I don't affirm a belief in transubstantiation either.

>         When i left the communion line and stepped aside,
>         one person tried to harrass me into further
>         participation, but other folks said it was okay
>         if i refused, either (a) because "Do What Thou
>         Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law" or (b)
>         because the deacon had not pre-advised me that if
>         i were to witness the ceremony i'd be agreeing to
>         take communion.

Yes, he should have done.
>
>         Of course, even if i HAD been pre-advised that
>         witnessing the ceremony was a contract to take
>         communion, i'd STILL have refused the communion,
>         because no one would have informed me that i
>         would have had to have agreed to affirm a sincere
>         belief in what i consider to be a lot of 19th
>         century Baphomet-transubstantiation foolery.

I certainly wouldn't have informed you of that, since the thought never even
crossed my mind. As repeated earlier there's no phrase that suggests that in
the Gnostic Mass. There is the phrase: "I believe in the serpent and the
lion, mystery of mystery, in his name Baphomet", and the aforementioned
statement of belief of the transmutation (not transubstantiation, that's a
very different thing) of food; but the two phrases are not linked that I can
see.

Has it ever struck you that your major contention of dispute here is
something that you yourself may have invented? Is your problem with the
concept of transubstantiation itself, or with the concept of it being
Baphomet? In other words, do you actually believe that transubstantiation
can occur at all, and if so, that it might occur within the Gnostic Mass? I
think a clear-cut presentation of this might shed more light on this essay.
>
>         As e.e. cummings said, "there is some shit i
>         will not eat."

He should know. I've read his poetry.

93 93/93

Rodney

--

http://www.rodneyorpheus.com

"The world is my altar"
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From thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Fri Jun 18 20:56:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:53:04
To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org, thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: Ksatriva 
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax" (fwd)
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DO what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law1

At 02:18 PM 6/18/99 +0200, Rodney Orpheus wrote:

>Although this is *probably* true, it is by no means universally accepted as
>the only possible derivation. Two other possibilities that have been put
>forward are that is a corruption of "Baphe Metis" or Baptism of Wisdom, or
>even that it is derived from "Bafo Methr", father Meithras (i.e. a
>continuation of Roman military rites)

I've also heard the theory that it is "Sophia" encoded with the Athabash
cipher.


>>         Crowley was briefly a Mason, but his warrants came
>>         from the so-called "Yarker Diploma Mill" which
>>         were later withdrawn by the United Grand Lodge
>>         of England. During the 1920s the OTO was sued
>>         for claiming to "make Masons."
>
>I've never heard of this suit, nor do I find it easy to believe that such a
>suit would take place. The UGLE is notoriously reticent in bringing such
>things into the public eye.

I believe she's referring to the Salt Lake incident though it was an OTO
initiate -- not the OTO itself -- that was the subject of the lawsuit.

Basically, Theodor Reuss issued an O.T.O. certificate to Matthew McBlain
Thomson in 1919. 

On May 15, 1922 Thomson was convicted in the Federal Court at Salt Lake
City of using the mail to defraud by selling Masonic Degrees through the
mail. A book called "The Thomson Masonic Fraud, A Study in Clandestine
Masonry" was written in 1922 about the incident and privately published in
Salt Lake.

Also, for general note, there is a document online with a foreword by
Hymenaeus Beta that consists of a "round robin" of Masonic letters
denouncing co-masonry:

http://www.oto.no/amb/earlyoto.html

Love is the law, love under will.

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To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: Ksatriva 
Subject: Re: Gnostic My Ass or Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax (fwd)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law!

At 01:13 PM 6/18/99 -0700, KTom wrote:

>That's funny, eeah.  Only I've never seen a Mass where there was more than
>bare feet on either the priest or priestess.  (I still think it is funny,
>though.)

I saw the aforementioned white tennis shoes.  They were kind of hard to
ignore, especially when sitting on the floor where they were right at
eye-level. 

On a slightly different note, the finest Mass I've had the pleasure to
attend thus far was led by Tiger and Celia.  

Tiger is able to communicate volumes through body motion and facial
expression.  When he "stumbled" out of the tomb, he not only fulfilled the
text of the ritual but he truly communicated the concept of the dead coming
to life as well as the idea of groping and stumbling into life unprepared
and uninstructed.

The look on his face when he asked how he should be made worthy to
administer the virtues was a beautiful mix of playful little boy, sexual
innuendo, secret knowledge of worthiness as a pre-existing condition, love
and admiration.

I couldn't for the life of me tell you whether he even wore shoes.  His
priesting was too captivating for me to notice anything else.

Love is the law, love under will.

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From: "KTom" 
To: 
References: <199906181224.FAA12016@borg.steinberg.net>
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax" (fwd)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:36:45 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rodney Orpheus 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 05:18 AM
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax" (fwd)

93,


> "And inasmuch as food and drink are transmuted in us daily into spiritual
> substance, I believe in the miracle of the Mass." There's no phrase in
> Gnostic Mass that says the Sacrament is transubstantiated into *anything*
> much less Baphomet. I suppose one could make an argument for it, but in
all
> my years of performing and teaching it, I never once even thought about
that
> possibility until now. How strange...

There's no phrase that says inasmuch, either.  At least in none of the texts
here that I use for reference.

They all say (the ones I checked) "forasmuch" as meat and drink...

> >         Levi got the word "Baphomet" from some dreadful
> >         Catholic propaganda of the 1300s that had been
> >         created to accuse the Christian monastic order of
> >         Knights Templar of pro-Islamic sympathies by claiming
> >         that they engaged in the heresy of worshipping
> >         Mohammed {= Mahomet = Baphomet, a poor transliteration
> >         by people unfamiliar with the Arabic language}.
>
> Although this is *probably* true, it is by no means universally accepted
as
> the only possible derivation. Two other possibilities that have been put
> forward are that is a corruption of "Baphe Metis" or Baptism of Wisdom, or
> even that it is derived from "Bafo Methr", father Meithras (i.e. a
> continuation of Roman military rites)

That was (is) more my interp on the word as well, it jives with my
particular gnostic worldview, too.

The result of Sophia-Acamoth (sp)/Jesus the Christ makes for a hursuit
Baphometic figure to me, anyhow.

> >         Membership linkages between the Liberal Catholic
> >         Church and Theosophist-controlled national bodies of
> >         Co-Freemasonry -- especially among the highest-
> >         ranking officers -- exactly parallels the
> >         membership linkages among high-ranking officers
> >         in the Gnostic Catholic Church and the ruling
> >         body of the OTO. The set-up is virtually identical,
> >         in fact.

Now I have to say wait a minute:  I've participated in both Old Catholic and
Liberal Catholic masses, and the two priests in question while they were/are
friends, they could hardy agree on anything.  The one thing they did agree
on though, was their opinion of Crowley.  It wasn't a good one either.  The
EGC in their eyes as well, was/is a front for the Black Mass.  Hell there's
plenty `o OTO people that would say the same thing.

I do realize there is some cross pollinization, though.  Regardless of
whether they agree or like it.  But publically the Liberal Catholic Church
(at least not the priests I know of) would never likely admit to any
connections at all with EGC.

Am I agreeing with Rodney, here?  Maybe, could be 

> Fascinating. I'm sure Crowley would find this extremely funny, given his
> hatred of Besant.

> >         Why did i refuse the Gnostic Mass communion?
> >         Because i couldn't stand on what was alleged to
> >         be sacred ground and honestly affirm my belief in
> >         a transubstantiation
>
> I don't affirm a belief in transubstantiation either.

I've taken people to Mass and had them not take Communion.  The reasons
were'nt the same though.

But they don't go for Mass at all now, either!  Also, their more private
about their reasoning (I still haven't figured why) that's me.  And likely
none of my business, either.
>
> >         When i left the communion line and stepped aside,
> >         one person tried to harrass me into further
> >         participation, but other folks said it was okay
> >         if i refused, either (a) because "Do What Thou
> >         Wilt Shall Be the Whole of the Law" or (b)
> >         because the deacon had not pre-advised me that if
> >         i were to witness the ceremony i'd be agreeing to
> >         take communion.
>
> Yes, he should have done.

That's my understanding, too.

> Has it ever struck you that your major contention of dispute here is
> something that you yourself may have invented? Is your problem with the
> concept of transubstantiation itself, or with the concept of it being
> Baphomet? In other words, do you actually believe that transubstantiation
> can occur at all, and if so, that it might occur within the Gnostic Mass?
I
> think a clear-cut presentation of this might shed more light on this
essay.

That's good question.  Certainly there's plenty of the `subjective' in way
of the post tone.

Not that I have a problem with the subjective.

93 93/93

KT

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"Scholarly My Ass" being a expose of a "Massive History-Hoax"

Dear (I presume) Catherine Cyronwode (aka Soror U First),

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.    

Please be advised that the text below may contain elements
of the rituals of Co-Masonry, which some may wish not to
read before taking the degrees.

You are of course entitled to your opinnions on as well as
experiences with the Gnostic Mass.  What I have trouble relating
to is the blatant hatred you expound¨in your text.  Seeing however
that much of what you have written in the past follows in the same
vein, it shouldn't have surprised me as it did.  Be that as it may be,
I'm not particularly interested in entering a discussion about your
feelings towards O.T.O., Liber XV in particular or even Thelema in general.
I think however it is necessary to point out certain obvious factual
errors in your text.

>         Crowley was briefly a Mason, but his warrants came 

Crowley was not a regular mason.

>         from the so-called "Yarker Diploma Mill" which 

This is wrong.  Crowley's initiation into the Craft was at Anglo-Saxon
Lodge No. 343 of Paris under charter of the Grande Loge de
France, which was not recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England.
It was later regularised but regularity does not work backwards.

>         were later withdrawn by the United Grand Lodge 
>         of England. During the 1920s the OTO was sued 
>         for claiming to "make Masons." 

As I've told you before U.G.L.E. did not withdraw any
warrants given to John Yarker.  Yarker remained a member
of U.G.L.E. in good standing to his death.

He however quarrelled with the legitimate Supreme Council
of the Ancient and Accepted Rite of England, being as he was
a supporter of the much debated "Cernau Rite" of the A.A.S.R.,
which he ran in England under the auspices of the Antient & Primitive
Rite of Memphis.  

To give you a impression of U.G.L.E.'s stance on these matters,
one needs only to look at the time when both Yarker and the
representatives of the legitimate Supreme Council went to
the U.G.L.E. and demanded each others expulsion.  U.G.L.E.
quite properly said it was none of their business, falling as
it did outside their jurisdiction.

Please read the very informative article by John Hamill on
John Yarker in the AQC for the facts of John Yarker's masonic
activities.

>Why would Crowley put forth such a claim?

He surely didn't in the 1920s.  The London lodge never recovered
after the raid during the first world war by the police due to
his pro-german work in the States.  I would like to know your
sources for this one, as it is the first time I've heard this
story.

If it is as some has suggested the Thomson case in the States you are
refering to,
it is rather well known that he did not use his authority from the O.T.O.
O.T.O.
was not on trial in that case, a member of the Order was (though his
membershio
at that moment may be in dispute).  His certificate list him as a 33' 96' IX',
and authorises him to act as the Order's Chief Delegate etc. in order to
strenghten
the fraternal bonds between the O.T.O. and Thomson's ill-fated American
Masonic Federation.
It's from 1919.

Thomson was convicted of fraud May 15. 1922.  Reuss had allready
quarrelled with Thomson over jursidictional issues, after Reuss failed
in his endeavours at the Congress of the World Federation of
Universal Freemasonry held in Libertas et Fraternitas Lodge in July 1920. 
Thomson was then elected Honorary President of the International Masonic
Federation.

Here's the story about Crowley.  Crowley gets to be G.M. of the O.T.O. around
1912 e.v.  He rewrites the rituals.  Later during his stay in
the states due to the objection of some american A.A.S.R.
members that the rituals still was too close to the masonic originals,
he rewrote them further, eventually abandoning the peculiar
symbols of the Craft.  All this have been dicussed and
researched in Martin P. Starr's excellent article on
Crowley's masonic activities in AQC.

>         In support of this theory, i must digres for a 
>         moment: Co-Freemasonry was founded in France during 
>         the 1880s and had, by the 1900s, spread to England
>         Spain, Belgium, Brazil, India, the United States,
>         Venezuela, and other nations. It is distinguished 
>         from male Masonry solely by virtue of the fact that 
>         women are permitted to join; in all other respects, 
>         it preserves the character, symbolism, rituals, and 
>         organizational hierarchy of male Freemasonry. 

This is simply not true as you well know.  Co-Masonry diverges
from ordinary Craft in several ways, including the fact that they
organise the Craft under the authority of appendant degrees
(which according to U.G.L.E. is anathema to the spirit of
masonry as the Craft is supposed to be independent). 

I've in my posession all the recent Craft rituals as worked
by the Co-Masonic Lodges in Norway, who publicly advertises themselves
as Le Droit Humaine.  There are several strange divergences, due
to the innovations of Leadbetter and Besant.  Including but not
limited to a addition of elemental purifications etc.

In fact, in their storage room in their Lodge in Trondheim there still is
the old painting of a theosophic "Master" whose sublime presence
was required in the past (though not anymore) to be present in
the East over the head of the W.M. of the Lodge.

I note however you write that this is not universal, but 
to write as you do that "in all other aspects it preserves the character
[...]" etc. makes a general statement about a internatinal brotherhood,
that simply is not true.

Co-Masonry however you twist your facts, is and can be not considered regular
by U.G.L.E., nor by any other body which has U.G.L.E.'s approval.  In fact
the legitimate Grand Lodge of Norway takes a rather dim view on Co-Masonry,
as does that of Denmark (the legitimate one, not the spurious association
who work the Co-Masonic rituals and ideals in Denmark).  If there is any
Grand Lodge which acknowledges the regularity of Co-Masonry, it is not known
to U.G.L.E., who would apropriately and swiftly take action towards that
G.L.

In fact, during my many talks with members of the Co-Masons socalled
"masonic" Lodge in Trondheim,
a recurring theme was their complaints about the fact that they was not
recognised
as regular by the legitimate Grand Lodge of the Craft of Norway.  If they
wanted
to be recognised as regular masons they should join a regular lodge.  However
as long as the policy is as it is on women, women can't become regular masons.
They can of course become irregular ones, but just because I dress up as a
duck
and say "quack" doesn't make me one.  It either makes me an impostor if I
really try to
convince others that I am a duck, or a attendant at a costume party.

>         my surprise, however, right after the Gnostic Mass 
>         concluded, i myself was presented with this bogus 
>         claim! I mentioned to a man there that i had been 
>         amused to hear the name of the Reverend Hargrave 
>         Jennings in the list of official OTO Saints, 
>         and he asked what i knew about Jennings. I told
>         him that Jennings had been an Anglican minister, 
>         a Rociscrucian, and a prominent Freemason of the 
>         mid-19th century who wrote a dozen scholarly 
>         books on the ethnography of sex-worship in 
>         various tribal and national religions. The fellow 
>         then asked how i knew that Jennings was a Mason,
>         so i gave him some Freemasonic citations from 
>         Jennings' works -- and in response he claimed 
>         that the OTO is a "Co-Masonic Order." 

Have you stopped to even consider that perhaps what he meant
was that the O.T.O. was a masonic like order.  I've met my
fair share of members of various Orders through the times.
Indeed, members of the Odd Fellows, Templar Order etc. all
describe their activities as masonic, but not necesarily
meaning that they raise someone to Master Mason.  So what
he may have meant was that the O.T.O. was a masonic like Order
which admits both men and women.

For a concrete example, the past Master of the Templar Lodge in
Trondheim, described their activities as masonic to me.

Whatever he meant, it is not as hilarious as your answer to
the following question on: http://www.sonic.net/yronwode/comasonry.html

"Can women be Freemasons? 
 The answer is YES."

To this, as Crowley did, I must say, they can not.
 
>         As e.e. cummings said, "there is some shit i 
>         will not eat." 

Well after all the creed goes: "And, forasmuch as meat and drink are
transmuted in us daily into spiritual substance, I believe in the
Miracle of the Mass." I can sympathise with you not wanting to eat 
shit, but let the rest of us consume it in peace ;)

Love is the law, love under will.
Sincerely

Kjetil Fjell
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:28:01 +0100
To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
From: Mr Fernee 
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax"
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93

I've not read the whole thread but concerning this matter:-

>In fact
>the legitimate Grand Lodge of Norway takes a rather dim view on Co-Masonry,
>as does that of Denmark 
I am never been a co-mason, nor a mason as recognised by United Grand
Lodge of England but I have reason to believe that in England they get
on rather well. Grand Lodge does not recognise co-masonry, co-masonry
feels no need to seek such recognition. They do appear to respect each
other and have courteous & friendly relations

Best wishes

Ben

93                93/93

Ben Fernee,
Caduceus Books,
PO BOX 5349,
Stoney Stanton,
LEICESTER,
LE9 4ZJ.

Tel. 01455 250542, + 44 1455 250542 from overseas
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Private premises, visitors very welcome by appointment, please get in contact 
for address & directions.

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From thelema93-l-owner@www.hollyfeld.org Mon Jun 21 13:22:02 1999
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From: Kjetil Fjell 
To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org
Subject: Re: "Gnostic My Ass" or "Massive Levi-Taxil-Crowley Hoax"
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93.

> I've not read the whole thread but concerning this matter:- 
> >In fact the legitimate Grand Lodge of Norway takes a rather dim view on
> >Co-Masonry as does that of Denmark
> I am never been a co-mason, nor a mason as recognised by United Grand
> Lodge of England but I have reason to believe that in England they get
> on rather well. Grand Lodge does not recognise co-masonry, co-masonry
> feels no need to seek such recognition. They do appear to respect each
> other and have courteous & friendly relations

That individual members of U.G.L.E. may respect members of co-masonry,
and even regard them as "brothers or sisters" I've encountered myself.
However, this is a far cry from any recognition or even friendly
relations (which technically would mean that they could visit each
others meetings), from U.G.L.E. itself.  This was what I was commenting
on above.  The issue was regularity, not courtesy between individual
members of U.G.L.E. and co-masonry.  Sorry for being vague.

93,
93/93.
Fraternally

Kjetil

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