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TOP | RELIGION | TAOISMZen & Taoism
To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.religion.buddhism
From: xiwangmu
Subject: Re: Zen & Taoism
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:26:52 GMT
50020322 VI
liaM:
> Taoists aren't obsessed with "self", whereas it's all zen monks think about..
such generalizations are both fallacious and unbecoming of a respectful
comparison betwen these mammoth socioreligious and mystical traditions.
more truthfully, issues of impermanence and identity tend to obsess
the Zen Buddhist, while the Taoist hermit may be more interested in
the Way and how they fit into the Cosmic Wheel.
> that and the rules of the sangha.
see the rules at the White Mountain (Taoist) Monastery.
> Taoists would seem freeer than Zen monks, except that they have
> a hangup of their own : the "chi" life force, and the idea that
> by cultivating the life force immortality can be achieved.
there are hung-up people in every religiomagical and mystical culture.
they are not representative. focal concepts are valuable to identify,
but generalizing them across all participants is an error.
> Taoists never suffer. Zen masters always do.
silly. there are concepts of "dukkha" which sometimes translate to
"suffering" in Buddhism, but this hardly identifies the Zen roshi.
> Taoists believe in magic.
not all. many, especially those who are more fond of the philosophic
approach (largely solitary and mystical), wish to have nothing to do
with magic at all. some combine the philophic and magical with no
problems whatever.
> Zen is strictly rational and materialistic.
displaying a misapprehension of the foundations of Zen Buddhism,
which is *trans*rational in its approach, and predominantly non-dual.
> Taoists have the Tao Teh King which explains Taoism from A to Z.
the Lao (aka "Classic of Tao and Teh") is not an encyclopedia of Taoism,
though it is very important to many (not all) Taoists. probably more
important to Taoists, however, is probably what is called 'The Taoist
Canon' (collected scripture, liturgy, magicoreligious scripture, etc.).
> Zen has hundreds of books that bedevil the neophyte to such
> an extent he loses track of what or who he is, a dog or Dogen.
the trans-rational sometimes requires a stick made of the wood
which gave splinters in order to leverage them free.
> Zen looks to the Heart Sutra,
doesn't start there, but agreed. the Mahaprajnaparamita Sutra
(Great Heart of Wisdom Scripture), also known as 'the Heart Sutra',
is attributed to the great culture hero 'Arjuna of the Nagas' aka
Nagarjuna, whose expression, along with that of the Yogacara school,
were utilized by the Dhyana/Ch'an/Zen schools of Buddhism in the
foundation of what they called 'The Great Vehicle' (Mahayana,
extending much beyond Zen in scope and including Tibetan Buddhism
and other types also).
> the Diamond Sutra.
I'm not sure who loves this text, though it wouldn't surprise me
if Tibetan or other Buddhists like this as much or more than Zen
Buddhists. is this the same as 'The Diamond-Cutter Sutra'? given
an attribution that it helps the sitter cut through the dross of
personal consciousness to see what is apparent?
> Taoism has no equivalent texts.
this is false. there are many references contradicting this,
including essays by authors like Strickman in "Facets of Taoism",
in which these (often alchemical, sometimes ecstatic) texts are
examined and considered as to their authority. Ko Hung's writings
are an example of this, one might also compare the Chuang Tzu.
xiwangmu
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