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To: alt.magick.tantra,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.philosophy.taoism,talk.religion.misc From: catherine yronwodeSubject: Re: sexomysticism (was Re: Ejaculation/ Menstruation ....) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 00:20:13 -0800 ! [tyagi nagasiva] wrote: > > "Tommy" wrote: > | The Tantric articles says that when a men ejaculates , he is > | losing his power/energy, the same thing happens to women > | during the period. > > strange sources. women appear to gain tremendously in power during > a period, origin of tales of her danger As i understand this -- and i am not a scholar, just a reader -- in Indian tantra, there is no real concern about women losing power through menstruation. In fact, there are special benefits that are said to accrue to both men and women through visitation to the holy well of red water which is the menstrual blood of the goddess. However, in Chinese sex alchemy, there is mention of this concept of women losing their chance at immortality through the loss of menstrual blood. But Chinese sex alchemy is not Indian tantra yoga. > | We believe in Tantra, > no belief in tantra. explore and construct your science. That's fine for *you* to say, you devilish old iconoclast! > | but, we cant find an advice how to control the menstruation, > > why restrain the yin? why hamper the calf? why not encourage it? > > | and ejaculation. > > what if we encouraged them instead, to come intelligently? Why is my internal jukebox suddenly playing John Lennon's "Come Together"? > | She is doing the exercises that we found in a Tantra article and > | in a Reiki book, and she hopes that will work.... > > the crux of the statement is the definition of 'work' Good point. A total hysterectomy would "work" too. > catherine yronwode : > # Control of ejaculation is quite different than suppression of > # menstruation, in terms of the physical systems. The notion that > # menstruation should be overcome is a particular feature in Chinese > # sex-alchemy, where it is called "slaying the red dragon." > > # (Side note: in most of Chinese sex-magic literature, the term > # "dragon" (of heaven) refers to the man and the term "tiger" (of > # earth) refers to the woman while they are engaging in intercourse. > > really? I think more research is needed. with a quick glance into > the haus library I obtained the following: > > To hold on to the center to realize the oneness > of heaven and earth is achieved only by uniting > the sun and moon. The sun stands for the heart > and the moon for the lower tan t'ien cavity > under the navel), respectively symbolised by > the dragon (the female or negative vitality) > and the tiger (the male or positive vitality). > ----------------------------------------------- > _Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality_, by > Lu K'uan Y:u; Weiser, 1972; p. 67. > _______________________________________________ Hey, it's dueling Chinese sex alchemists! Actually, the source you cite contradicts the entire compilation of all 21 ancient sex-alchemy texts which are collected in: "Art of the Bedchamber: The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics Including Women's Solo Meditation Texts" compiled, translated, and annotated by Douglas Wile, State University of New York Press, 1992. In his lengthy introductory material to the collection, Wile explicates some of the obscure terminology used as metaphor in these texts. Here is an excerpt: _______________________________________________ Binary Terms ...Another group of pairs comes out of a more mythological mode of conceptualization, but these are subject to similar shifts as one moves from the solo to the sexual school [of alchemy] For example, "tiger" and "dragon," representing ch'i and spirit in the solo school, come to mean female and male in the sexual [school]. Pre- pubescent males and females whose sexual essences are fully intact come to be known as "green dragon" and "white tiger," mythical creatures who in the popular imagination are associated with east and west. In fact, the two cardinal points -- east and west -- routinely are used as covers for male and female, or their respective sexual essences. Occasionally, too, in the later texts, "dragon" will refer to just the penis, as when it "sports in water" or "drinks from the tiny spoon." When it comes to women's solo practices, the "white tiger" of ch'i must be subdued and the "red dragon" of the menses must be "slain" as a prelude to refining the elixir within the body of the female adept. ----------------------- ibid., page 34 _______________________________________________ Although Wile cites "pre-pubescent" males as those who are specifically symbolized by the Green Dragon, this is not fully borne out by the texts themselves: in certain texts, any male practitioner of whatever age or level of experience is referred to as the Dragon. Next, here is an excerpt from an actual text in Wile's translation: _______________________________________________ "True Transmission of the Golden Elixir" by Sun Ju-chung [circa 1615 C.E.] Lead and mercury represent the two participants. Half is my partner and half is myself. Female and male are two swords; one a crouching tiger, and the other a descending dragon. ----------------------- ibid., page 156 _______________________________________________ Here we have a clear example of the binary sets: lead / my partner / female/ tiger mercury / myself / male / dragon. And, to make the metaphor even clearer, here is another excerpt: ____________________________________________ "Summary of the Golden Elixir" by Chang San-feng [exact date in dispute; 15th -16th century C.E.] Face to face with her I remain free of emotion [arousal], while lead refines mercury...At this point, although engaged, one is as if unengaged. At a depth of one and three tenths inches do very little. But have your partner move very slightly three to five times. One's mental state is neither attached nor vacuous, but perfectly calm. The "tiger's eye" opens wide like a flower bud spewing jade; The "dragon's head" rears up and drinks from the "tiny spoon." {etc. , through the entirety of intercourse...] ----------------------- ibid., page 177 _______________________________________________ Here the "tiger's eye" that opens like a flower and spews jade is the lubricating yoni and the "dragon's head" that drinks from the "tiny spoon" is the penile glans inserted only to the depth of "one and three tenths inches," then rearing up to rub against the "tiny spoon" of the clitoris within the clitoral hood or foreskin. The woman directs these very small and controlled movements; thus does lead (female) refine mercury (male). > # Knowing this, it is easy to decode metaphorical sexual-spiritual > # material like: "The dragon comes down to earth while the tiger > # rises to heaven. > > just like in the alchemical graphic mat on the haus kaos library > wall. the tiger poised and relaxed, the dragon reaching, mesmerizing You mean the picture of "The Ole Red Rooster When She Comes" ??? (cf. Gwen Saylors's post in the thread on The Black Dog, re: killing the rooster for a crossroads ritual.) [Sorry, folks, private joke; please ignore.] Seriously, the painted mat on the haus kaos library wall depicts the dragon above the tiger -- the "normal" or "missionary style" position for sexual intercourse ("one a crouching tiger, and the other a descending dragon"). This is the position recommended for first entry during intercourse by at least one expert, the irrepressible 15th - 16th century author Chang San-feng. As Chang explains it, after mutual arousal and coition have proceeded for some time (probably, as i understand sexuality and the metaphoric language, at the point when the man needs to relax a bit in order to maintain his ejaculatory control), the partners reverse positions and the tiger rises above the dragon (the woman rolls atop the man). Here is a long series of excerpts, partially in blank verse and partially in prose, as originally presented. Simply extracting the passages that refer to the dragon / east / mercury / male and the tiger / west / lead / female does not do this remarkable text justice. I urge anyone with a sincere interest to read the entire treatise ____________________________________________ "Secret Principles of Gathering the True Essence" by Chang San-feng annotated by Chi Yi tzu [exact date in dispute; 15th -16th century C.E.] Carrying out the act upside down results in inversion. Only when upside down do the two things achieve completion. [elsewhere in this text, the "two things" (a.k.a. the "bamboo" or "flute without holes" and the "stringless zither") refer to the male and female genitals respectively] Completion depends on carrying out the act upside down. Carrying out the act upside down results in inversion. "Upside down" means earth over heaven [female superior position] Upside down means going against the normal course...Hey! You ought to know this! By her occupying the superior position, west [male] has come to east [female]. ... "Hey! Be careful! The dragon must not seek the tiger, but the tiger must find the green dragon herself. ... The "dragon" is oneself. ... Heaven over earth will become earth over heaven. Only when earth surmounts heaven can one become an immortal. The immortals equal heaven and earth in their longevity. Heaven over earth will become earth over heaven. Heaven over earth is called P'i (Standstill) [hexagram 12 in the I Ching]; earth over heaven is called T'ai (Peace) [hexagram 11]....Ha! When you come face to face, this truth illuminates heaven and earth, but very few in the past or present have spoken of it. ... Pressing breasts together and entwining thighs moves her heart. Leaning together and embracing shoulders, the true pleasure is near. These are the wondrous tidings of the strummed zither. No need to pluck with fingers to produce the pure sound. The "dragon" strums the "tiger's zither"...When the emotions are aroused, the "pure sound" comes; when the pleasure arises, the marvelous truth arrives. ... The dragon first seizes the tiger and the tiger seizes the dragon. Dragon and tiger entwine together, and the true pleasure grows intense. ... When the "dragon and tiger entwine together," the dragon is on top and the tiger below. This is the method of "installing the stove" and "setting up the crucible." [The above passages on the warming up period during which one is "installing the stove" and "setting up the crucible" seem to refer to a pair of lovers in a typical non-coital "make-out" or "foreplay" position with the woman entwined on the man's thigh, arm around his shoulders, as he "strums her zither," which "moves her heart" until the "pure sound" of her pleasure can be heard.] ... When the dragon reveals himself and seizes the tiger, the two unite. Now is the moment for the earth to play the role of heaven .... Earth the tiger and heaven the dragon reverse positions. The "dragon reveals himself and seizes the tiger" involves the methods for exciting the partner...With earth over heaven, experiment with tongue and heart. ..When fire has been transformed into water, it is time to begin. The dragon occupies the tiger's cave and the tiger seeks the dragon. The tiger stirs and the dragon welcomes her. ... When dragon occupies the tiger's lair, intrinsic nature and emotion are one. At this moment one must play dead. In the upside down position, have your partner move. And, after a short time, one drop arrives at my east. "When dragon occupies the tiger's lair" means that the dragon is on top and the tiger below. The dragon enters the tiger's gate. When the tiger acts as the guest of the dragon, this is the same as the worldly way [man on top]. When the dragon is the guest of the tiger, this is the direction of the tao [woman on top]...However, one must act dead to the world and be completely passive, allowing the partner to take the initiative. [This male death-posture is, of course, highly evocative of the "corpselike" Siva who lays supine beneath Kali in so many Indian devotional images.] ...If one does not carry out this kind of work, how can one expect to obtain that kind of transforming effect? [The "one drop" at the east, that is, from the male, the author does not explicate at all. It seems to me to refer to pre-come, possibly that emitted during a "bypassed" orgasm.] Although my partner's passion has become intense, I am oblivious. With trusting sincerity, she reveals her secret, as I wait for the right moment. When she lowers her head and closes her eyes, the true lead has arrived. Over a long distance, it comes flying like racing fire. The dragon asks the tiger about her condition, for I am unable to know the level of her pleasure. Only when I ask her does she tell me...I inhale, and through my nose, communicate with the mystery. Who can understand or comprehend this sort of work? The effect is like fire or a pearl. ... Although belonging to yin, the woman's body becomes the male body. The man, though originally the yang body, becomes the female body. Do not be alarmed that guest plays Ch'ien the host. [Ch'ien is The Creative, Heaven; hexagram 1 in the I Ching] For you must teach yourself temporarily to play the guest. Heaven, though above, turns over now to play the part of earth K'un, though formerly below, reverses roles to play the part of heaven [K'un is The Receptive, Earth; hexagram 2 in the I Ching] When partners alternate styles, they are naturally joyful and adoring. ----------------------- ibid., pages 179 - 183 _______________________________________________ This treatise is far more complex than the what is indicated in these excerpts about the dragon and the tiger. I left out the entire section on kissing, for instance, not to mention the part about the man masturbating in front of the woman to excite her! Read it yourself!!! > # This is called reversal." However, as far as i can tell, only in > # discussions of menstruation is the dragon seen to be female.) > > dragon-female is not standard? Correct; it is not only "not standard," in the 21 texts translated by Wile, the word "dragon" only appears in a female context in regard to women's "solo [celibate] practices," where the RED dragon is menstruation. In all other instances, the dragon -- sometimes specifically called the GREEN dragon -- is male and it can symbolize the penis as well as the entire man's body. > perhaps my readings are skewed. Or they were not taken from original texts on sex-alchemy but from modern redactions about Taoism in general? > here is something more to throw into the stew > > In the _Treatise on the Dragon and the Tiger_, by Su > Tung P'o, written in A.D. 1110. The 'pure' > transcendental metals are identified with different > parts of the body, and the alchemical processes, > instead of being realized in the laboratory, take > place in the body and in the consciousness of the > experimenter. In the words of Su Tung P'o: "The > dragon is mercury. It is the semen and blood. Semen and blood indicate BOTH male and female fluids! Thus Mircea Eliade tells us (we don't have a direct quote) that Su Tung P'o's mercurial (male) dragon is both genders in one, the RED dragon of blood and the GREEN dragon of semen. However, according to "True Transmission of the Golden Elixir" by Sun Ju-chung and the two texts by Chang San-feng quoted above, this cannot be, for there are only two sets of binary symbols: lead / "my partner" / female/ tiger /west / vaginal fluids mercury / "myself " / male / dragon / east / semen > He issues from the kidney and is stored in the > liver. The tiger is lead. Mircea Eliade's explanation of Su Tung P'o's tiger seems to indicate a female metaphor, despite Eliade's erroneous use of the male pronoun to describe the tiger. In fact, see above for Sun Ju-chung affirmation that "the tiger is lead." This is the standard reference to the tiger as female because the first stage of the alchemical process is that in which the "appearance of the true lead" signals the outset of the work; it corresponds to arousal and vaginal lubrication of the female. > He is breath and bodily strength. He issues from > the mind and the lungs bear him. > When the mind is moved, breath and > strength act with it. Whether "breath" and "strength" and "mind" and "lungs" are gender-specific symbols (male and female) is not obvious to me from context, and at this point i am not sure if Eliade is sure, either! > When the kidneys are flushed, > then semen and blood flow with them." This sounds more like a medical text than a sex-alchemy text, or rather, like a prescription for a menstruating woman who has just had orgasmic sex with a man to go pee -- which is not very yogic, since semen is not supposed to "flow" in any of these texts, and in the texts directed toward celibate women, blood isn't supposed to flow either. I wonder if Mircea Eliade made a mistake in translation here, but since the Su Tung P'o text is apparently alchemical only and not sex-alchemical, it was not included in Wile's compilation, so i cannot double-check it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > _The Forge and the Crucible: or the Origins and > Structures of Alchemy_, by Mircea Eliade, Publ. > by University of Chicago Press, 1978; pp. 120-121. > Quoting Waley, _Notes on Chinese Alchemy_, p.15. > cf. too Lu Ch'iang Wu and Tiel Davies _An Ancient > Chinese Treatise on Alchemy_, p. 255. > _____________________________________________________ > > # So, looking through the Chinese literature, what does one find? > > depends on the literature, I'll wager Not quite. When you look through the actual SEX-ALCHEMY TEXTS, you get one idea; when you read what modern interpreters have to say about these texts, you may get conflicting stories. For more on the dragon as male, consider the I Ching: The hexagram of Ch'ien, the Creative, Heaven, is symbolized by flights of dragons, which are male. However, to be honest and fair, the hexagram of K'un, the Receptive, Earth, is symbolized by a group of images involving mares, not tigers. Next consider Medieval Indian religious iconography, which was certainly a source for some of this Chinese sex-mystic symbolism. In India, the goddess Durga, the Sakti (power) or consort to the god Siva, rides upon a tiger; the tiger is her "vehicle." Siva, on the other hand, rides an elephant, but he is almost always shown wearing snakes or accompanied by sentient snake-beings (nagas) -- and the snake / lizard / reptile image accords well with the Chinese dragon. It does not seem too far a stretch to identify Sakti with tiger / female and Siva with snake-dragon / male. Remember we are dealing with several THOUSANDS of years of texts here, from a vast area of land. All sorts of transformations and appropriations of images are possible. It is widely held, to use another culture as an example, that the male god Allah of the Moslems was originally a female moon goddess, Alla't, and that Mohammed simply changed her sex and rewrote her mythos to bring it into line with other Middle Eastern religious systems. Likewise, in Asia, Avalokiteshvara and Kwan Yin are widely acknowledged to be the same entity, one male, the other female. And in Santeria, Santa Barbara, the female virgin martyr, is the "mask" or cover for the African male god (orisha) Chango, who was a man, and the 4th king of the Yoruba people, to be precise. All that having been said, however, the Douglas Wile collection of Medieval and later Chinese sex-alchemy texts makes it clear that the Dragon in the East is the male and the Tiger in the West is the female. Now, speaking of East and West, this brings in another element of Chinese sex-mystic practice, namely, its relationship to Chinese geomancy or feng shui, the theory of proper placement of architectural elements in the landscape or furnishings within the dwelling. Chinese sex-alchemy texts have quite a bit to say on this subject. Here are some excerpts: _______________________________________________ "Summary of the Golden Elixir" by Chang San-feng [date in dispute; circa 15th -16th century C.E.] + Choosing a Location + Some prefer to live in the countryside. The earth should be red or yellow and without ancient graves... A place where the mountains and rivers are pure and beautiful is auspicious indeed. Otherwise I am afraid it will not be suitable for your work. + Choosing Comrades to Assist in Practice + One must choose like-minded comrades for a relationship of deep commitment. They should be by nature poised, loyal, filial, friendly, and fraternal.... At the moment of obtaining the elixir, one is as if drunk or without reason. Everything then depends upon the careful nurturance of the "comrades" and "yellow dame." Otherwise the impulse to go in for the kill [orgasm] rises like a sharp temper. + Setting Up the Elixir Platform + ...The altar table should include pure water, incense, candles, flowers, and vases. Arrange the ancient ritual implements...One should worship here both morning and evening....[To the] east is "the chamber of the green dragon," and [to] the west is "the chamber of the white tiger" In the center is the altar for making offerings... Due north and south should be precisely aligned...The windows should be clear and the tables clean. Fences and barriers ensure peace and seclusion. Plant flowers and shrubs and raise cranes and deer to provide an area for the gentlewoman to relax. ----------------------- ibid., page 173 _______________________________________________ Thus, according to this Chinese equivalence of directionality with sexuality, a man who wishes to worship a female goddess would do well, as you yourself have noted in another context, to place Her altar (the chamber of the white tiger") in the West, while a woman who wishes to worship a male god would do well to place His altar ("the chamber of the green dragon") in the East. As each devotee symbolizes to the other the sexualized deity of choice, so each devotee might stand at the altar to Himself or Herself in deified form and turn in the direction of preferred worship -- he at the East turning to face Her in the West, she at the West turning to face Him in the East. Then each will see the other, flanked by deific imagery. Their meeting place, the alchemical crucible or bed ("the altar for making offerings"), might be in the center, between the two. Toward the North of this central space might be an altar to the invariant pole-star around which the union of the two sexualized forces entwines. To the South, where the beauty of the day and night take form, might be placed a window onto the created garden-world, the peaceful, flowery, and fenced area in which the "gentlewoman" may relax. Well, that's one way to do it, at any rate. Memorization of lists of god-names and symbols of religious worship will only take one so far before the madness of frustration at human inconsistency sets in. There is no one "right" or "official" way to reconcile all variant historical documents. There is no master concordance to the sum of human knowledge, cultural experience, and mystical theory. > # A series of instructions for changing a basic, healthy, human > # physiological process. And what benefits are supposed to accrue > # to one? "Immortality." > > good health, long life, happiness, good luck, advantage in > adversity, mystical powers, beneficial rebirth, beneficial > afterlife, never-ending life, total bliss, perfect presence, > scintillating meridians > > # Sorry. I don't buy it. I have a strong suspicion that every ancient > # Chinese woman who managed (via malnutrition?) to achieve a > # suppression of the menses died anyway. People just die, y'know? > # Conserving semen or menstrual fluid is not gonna stop anyone from > # dying. > > never good to buy package from alien sources before seeing what's > inside. but what if this sparkly carrot shields an important > bioactive or human experience? Since, as you noted at the outset, many (most?) women feel most dynamic, and certainly most sexually powerful at the onset of menstruation, i challenge the notion that suppression of the menses, even if it can be accomplished in any "spiritual" manner short of inducing malnutrition or hormone derangement, will add to their power. If the sparkly carrot of immortality shields an important bioactive or human experience exemplified in the suppression of menses, why then have women in all cultures OTHER than the ancient foot-binding, women-hating Chinese considered failures of the menstrual cycle (barring pregnancy, lactation, and menopause) to be signs of illness, weakness, and loss of normality? Are the Chinese right and everyone else wrong? Are the Chinese even CONSISTENT in this belief? NO! They are not! In "Correct Methods for Women's Practice" by Ling Yang Tao Jen, there is an entire chapter (which i am mercifully too tired to quote at length) on "the blockage of the menses resulting in illness," including yoga-like exercises intended as curatives for the disorders that accompany the cessation of the menses for any cause other than pregnancy, lactation, or menopause. So despite the anti-menstrual dogma associated with some Chinese sex-alchemist authors, others seem to have considered menstruation a natural, normal process and to have believed that its absence was not healthy. I suspect that in requesting instruction on the elimination of the menses, our original querent, Tommy, had been reading the work of Mantak Chia, an author whom Douglas Wile feels had absorbed only a few of the ancient texts (perhaps only one of them, which he cites by name) and then improvised upon his meager knowledge with what i call "the voice of assumed authority," thus creating a false and misleading impression of the importance of menstruation suppression in Chinese sex alchemy. For a startlingly negative review of Mantak Chia's scholarship ("nearly every citation from Chinese history or primary sources reveals conspicuous factual errors") plus a gently worded opposition to Chia's advocacy of reverse ejaculation (whereby the semen is forced into the bladder) -- a practice NOT universally endorsed by ancient Chinese sex-alchemists, who considered such seed "corrupt" -- see pages 63 - 65 in "Art of the Bedchamber." Now all this talk of things we must avoid -- menstruation. ejaculation, corrupt seed, and the loss of power -- leads me to ask a simple question: Can't human beings experience sacred sex, the perception of the divine through sexual intercourse, without creating all these foolish impediments to achieving ecstasy? Must we always find SOMETHING wrong with our bodies and our minds? Why do sex-mystics continually disrespect our best moments and complain of things like too much blood, too much semen. the "impurity" of marriage, the "wastage" of semen during masturbation and of blood during menstruation and childbirth, the wrong diet, the "impure" thoughts, the improper pronunciation of the names of god -- even THE SEX ACT ITSELF? Can't someone speak up for the beauty and holiness of THE WAY THINGS ALREADY ARE, if only we slow down and take them at full, deep value? > immortality may be mythical an implicative of attenuated > experience. my initial experimentation supports this thesis "Attenuated experience"? Please explain what you mean by that. Also, how have you experimented with immortality? What did you do and what results did you achieve? > # ...spiritual discipline that seeks to devalue or subvert normal > # mammalian body processes in search of a so-called "higher" good. > > one interpretation. the initiated avoid the pitfalls, grasp the > center of the dynamic and ride the tiger What do you mean by "the center of the dynamic" in this context? As far as menstruation goes, like Ken Kesey said, "You're either on the bus or you're off the bus." You're either bleeding once a month or you're not. If i were to construct my own way-out and wacky ideal of "spiritual discipline for menstruating women," i'd encourage them all to bleed at the same time of the moon, the whole world 'round. That'd be very interesting. (Image of a bunch of New Age ladies meditating on their moon cycles at sunset every Friday, hoping to synch themselves up; praying to be synched up; sending mega-byte-tons of multi-forwarded email to all the hundreds and thousands of their near-friends, telling them what day we will all be expected to start bleeding. Yaargh.) Sorry for the length of this post; i was alone tonight and i fell into a "researchy" mood. Within the next few days that ought to change, as i will begin to spend my evenings engaged in more truly "alchemical" pursuits! catherine yronwode Sacred Sex: http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
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