a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


A Taoist question

To: alt.philosophy.taoism
From: Jew)
Subject: Re: A Taoist question
Date: 29 Feb 2000 21:36:01 GMT

Marcus Godfrey  wrote: 
lisa wrote:
>Is this the Marcus who used to write here before??  In any case,
>welcome  :)

ditto :) 

>Lisa, No I'm new here but have been an out spoken Taoist for
>about eleven years.

Well, good for you! :) 

>To elaborate on the confussi (whatever, I never could spell)
>thing.  My understanding (My standard disclaimer) is that
>Confucius was the philosopher of kings in China. 

Unlike the common view of the Taoist's, re (political/social)
'non-conformity', "Confucius" did work 'within the system' that
perpetuated during his time -> which was systemically chaotic! ;)
For realizing extreme emotional superstitions 'naturally pri-
mordially' (or Shang-epic sub-based..) pervading these warring
periods, he made his (first)-"teacher" attempt to instill mental
reasoning into that emotionally chaotic landscape. To Streetch
this a bit, in esoterical words, I feel he made it his ch'i-
laboring to work the 'bottom'-UP, complementing the 'Taoist's',
who worked from the UP-(to the) 'bottom'. (fn)  

>His ideals were those of servitude in a hierarchy that fell from
>the Emperor down to woman at the bottom. All things serve other
>things and any means necessary should be used to preserve this

Historically (and esoterically 'universally') when Confucius was
doing his advocacy operatives, there was *no Confucian-ism* --
that --like their later intermixing with Religious Taoism's yin
yang gender 'confuss'ng-- prostituted much of what he originally
instilled. Much 'Confucianism' confused his thoughts to make it
their own elitist' 'greed' to uphold. Addendum ancient and 
contemporary interpretation confusion, and we have this common
>Lao Tsu's Taoism was a small rebellion made for the things that
>served other things to create harmony between all. 

Certainly true. (As I mentioned a few times on this ng) as 
these 'Lao Tzu Taoism' "Shih Idealists" (fn1) identified their
transcendent qualities with their tangible capacities, they
naturally entered into (group)-social/political 'governing'
intervening. "Because the personal character of ruler-
administrators was so pivotal (during these warring times), shih
idealists placed an extraordinary emphasis on character
formation" (LaFarque). Hence, in interweaving this in, they
entered into (the Emperor or Prince's) service to invite a new
foundation for the crumbling social/political order that (then)
reached it's 'extreme' point --> 'change'(s)-over.  

For example, in such assert-ion gleen's, Han Dynasty *Minister*
Sheu Ho (194 B.C.) introduced Laws which neutralized errors of
the unscrupulous and fostered peace and prosperity..." Minister
Ho (a Taoistic -"Shih Idealists?") advocated "he who knows the
Secret of Life, when traveling abroad, will not flee from either
rhinocerous or tiger; when entering a hostile Camp, he will equip
himself with sword or spear. The rhinocerous cannot find in him a
place to insert his horn; the tiger finds no vulnerable spot to
fasten to his claw: Why is this? Because in this man there is no
pore where death can enter." 

>The emperor then becomes just another man in the river with all
>other men. He is not the way. I believe that this was more to
>keep hope alive in such a repressive time.

For the "shih idealists" the hope was always there. It was a
matter of evolving the human to be a human.. then unfolding the
human to change and transfigure, transform and transcend



>>Marcus wrote:
>Rob, The blade of grass will survive because it is small (te)
>and because it is green and thin and pliable and able to move
>about in a strong wind. The tree on the other hand is stiff and
>large and can break in a strong wind.
>>Well said.  I see it as maximizing navigational efficiency
>>through utilizing our 'heaven given' attributes...

fn: "As the use of force and political manipulation increasingly
came to replace (the *Emperor*'s) hereditary title as a source of
political power, rulers needed new sources of legitimation. Some
may have looked to "Shih" idealists as a source of this
legitimation, at least wanting to appear as least to be
associated with them.. That "the very high respect with which
some individual "shih" were regarded, led other "shih" to gather
around them, to learn their guidance.. this led to the formation
of many small and informal "shih"-schools.. this is the kind of
group I believe also responsible for the 'Tao Te Ching'". --Prof.
Michael LaFarque 

fn1: As we view the majoral scholastic concept of the "Tao Te
Ching" as notions of the 'Ruler', for the 'Ruler', Confucius "did
not talk about spiritual beings or even about life after death.
Instead believing that the man "can make the Way (Tao) great,"
and not that "the Way can make man great," he concentrated on
man." --Prof. Chan
-"The Analects of Confucius: A Philosophical Translation: A New
Translation Based on the Dingzhou Fragments and Other Recent
Archaeological Finds"/ tr. Ames and Rosemont/ 1998. 
-"The Analects of Confucius: A Literal Translation"/ tr. Chichung
Huang/ 1997. 
-"Illustrious Prime Ministers of China: Their Ancient Manners,
Customs and Philosophies: A Symphony of the Spheres"/ L.H. Sang
and Alexander/ 1928
-"The Tao of the Tao Te Ching"/ tr. and commentary, M. LaFarque/
-"Source Book on Chinese Philosphy"/ Prof. Chan/ his tr. quotes
from Confucius's "Analects"/ 15:28 

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races