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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.pagan,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc From: satanservice.org@boboroshi (SOD of the CoE) Subject: Satanists and Thelemites and Neopagans, Oh My!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 00:45:11 GMT 50031221 vii om Hail Satan, happy solstice! Janette/Jane/Jani/Jan: #># The worship of Satan is just the flip side of the worship #># of Christ - Christianity embracing a dualism as it does. some Christians are monists, believe it or not. Xolotl: #> Why do you believe that satanists all "worship" Satan? she believes it because she's ignorant and wants to believe the lies that Christians have been telling about 'satanists'. a good deal of fearmongering is part of converstion schemes, and some have even profited monetarily during the Satanic Panic. this is part of the reason that the Ninth Scholar's Library was constructed: for the edification of those interested in differentiating between slanderous fabrications (whether it comes from Christians *or* from Neopagans/Thelemites!) and those who actually continue to practice their religion and self-identify as Satanists (often solitaries, but sometimes they coagulate and draw up meaningful manifestos). #> You might want to do some basic investigation of other #> philosophies/religions before you go slinging off against #> paths you know not of, yes? the intended effect seems to be to challenge, not understand. #> Also, why do you use the term "Christianity" as an insult? probably because she is a disgruntled Christian, from a family background that includes heavy doses. my guess. #> There are many flavors of Christianity (likewise of Satanism). rationality is divine. #> You are not [being] compelled to embrace any of these paths, #> so why all the hostility? disappointment, apparently. #> Why do you think either Satanism or Christianity "embraces" #> a dualism any more than a funny-mentalist Thelemite #> babbling-on about 2=0??? the use of those 5 fateful letters: S A T A N compare: L O T A N all manner of fundie and former-fundie Christians believe this. even when they've converted to Neopaganism sometimes they will perpetuate these nonsense attestations. #># Therefore a Satanist = a twisted Christian. tautological. #># You're a Christian by another name? it is arguably true that inverso-Christians are Christians. that doesn't mean that all Satanists are inversos, however. I contend that the predominant, serious Satanists are more often NOT inversos, preferring to have avoided or stepped away from that kind of Black Mass material of conversion, just like stepping away from so much dead skin. sometimes this requires conversions to other religious impetuses like Egyptian god worship or Cthulhu-assistance or demonolatry, but by and large a goodly number of Satanists are atheists. this seems to be supported by sociology materials, those by investigators in Satanic Panic, and from Satanists too. #> By what qualifications do you view yourself fit to define #> Satanism this way? Any uninformed, prejudiced, person #> can call names. This appears to be what you are doing here... bingo. #># Thelema embraces a kind of monothesism - to try and #># attain the undivided Will by practise of the Law. #> #> "It is written...." there wasn't even a citation from 'Thelemic scripture' given here. it was just a blunt claim about what 'Thelema' does and does not include or embrace. no support whatever. #># This does not embrace the dualism of either Satanism arguments against this include those which feature Crowley invoking Satan, making claims about his Holy Guardian Angel *was* Satan (if you must :>) and his twisted invers-Xtain rituals like crucifying some poor frog in the name of Jesus. secondary arguments associate Crowley's primary ritual focus with Huysmans and Wheatly and Maugham and their fictional Satanism through Baphomet-adoration in quasi-Christian mass revisions (e.g. "The Gnostic Mass" of the (c)OTO, which is said to reference all the sex magic secrets of the order). a more erudite conversation might be had about the topic, but it usually buried under the foolish contentions of fundie Christians, sometimes new converts to their Thelemic Master. #># or Christianity. the question of whether 'Thelema', the religion, is itself 'Old Aeon', is a good one. that it seems to have started on the back of a satirist (Rabelais) and perpetuated through the expression of a scandalous and notorious occultist (Crowley), both apparently in response to Christian norms, makes plain the obsessions and limitations of their focus. Crowley was even identifying with the Revelations Beast. #># So which are you? Satanist (twisted Christian) or #># Thelemite? .... here's some scripture for Thelemites (Crowleyan): $ The word of the Law is [ThELEMA (in Greek)]. $ $ Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look $ but close into the word. For there are therein Three $ Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of $ Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. from $ Liber Al vel Legis sub figura 220 $ http://www.luckymojo.com/crowley/220al.txt which is considered important by lots of religious Thelemites. call me a Thelemite if you like, sure. #> Now, who's the twisted monotheistic funnymentalist here? that's the mode of proof-texting that some Thelemite religious engage. it is as convincing as any other religious with axes to grind, points to prove, and persuasion about their peccadillos to proffer. the more convincing religious will provide you with clear references to Liber Al or Crowley's or some other Thelemic prophet's writings and contend there is some merit to them for some reason. Amos Keppler: # Well, there are basically two kinds of satanists. oh sure, now you'll tell it like it is. always 2 of things. # The christian satanists (with the duality shit) point out some "christian satanists" in organizations for us please. I doubt you'll find many. if you say they're all solitaries, point to some web-pages of some examples. I'm sure there's a few you could bring to light, but the volume of *non*-Christians who are involved in Satanism pretty much blows this away. the 'secondary category' you're segmenting Satanism into is fallacious. it isn't part of Satanism so much as a queer facet within an ostensibly rival religion. compare other inversos in dualistic religions who are contending against the extremity of their parent-trads. Yezidis are one that some Satanists like to identify. # and the others. The others, as I understand it # "preaches" self determination and individuality, # and don't worship anything, and that I do like. it varies, but self-determination, self-sovereignty, and sometimes even self-worship are more the focus. # The christian satanists, and christians in general, # however, do not and do. apparently they do not talk about self-determination and do worship things. agreed. # So they're really deserving of any scorn that may # (and should) come their way. these values run through Protestant Christian culture to an extent. some of these diversify themselves to include all manner of types of worship (as with the more liberal Anabaptists) and its freedom. I think there is very good reason to gather together neuvo-religions that form in *response* to Christian precursors and study them together. religions like Wicca, Thelema, and Satanism may be said to share some very important things that are very often downplayed in Christianity and other religions of the Book as they are popularly practiced and espoused (e.g. self-determination, self-derived ethics). blessed beast! boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/ TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/ Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/ ---------------- and To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.thelema,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc Subject: Satanism, Thelema, and Other Religions From: satanservice.org@boboroshi (SOD of the CoE) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:06:27 GMT 50031221 vii om happy solstice! followups set responsibly jan@babalon.co.uk (Jane.): # The orbit of the Satanist revolves around Christianity -- # and thier obsession with creating an anti-doctrine to it.... examples from people's online materials? # I don't much like Christianity either. Get a different # doctine not an anti docterine or at least acknowledge # the duality is caused by an obsession with the # Christian doctrine. your criticism of 'dual' is facile. fundamental documents in the history of Satanism (recent really :>) indicate that 'Satanism' is just a name as it would be seen in Christian cultures. some Satanists indicate that they're primarily talking about an *anti-religion*, and so the primary thrust of religion's Antagonist may determine the name of the cult which resides as its rejectors. # ...Have you ever heard of a hungry ghost? Met one # perhaps? ... you mentioned hungry ghosts in our other conversations. your background somehow crosses over into Buddhism? # How long do demons hang around for? how long do you think they do? when we were talking about Holy Guardian Angels, you said you didn't trust them either, and that you'd had bad experiences that led you to doubt spirits. one can hardly blame you, but do you think your negative experiences are very representative on the whole? # This isn't a quick fix. There isn't a quick fix. what's broken? Stalkz: #> I'm talking about mentally. Since I am the one I #> worship, once I am dead, I will no longer worship #> myself, because I will not have thought. Maybe a #> better word should be used instead of worship, LaVeyan Satanists throw around the "I worship myself" language somewhat, but when challenged as to what this means usually there is silence. I'm presuming it is predominantly focussed on hedonism, which is supportable when not pursued to excess and self-debilitation. #> as I don't literally "Worship" myself. why not? why don't LaVeyans put up altars with their own pictures and get on their KNEES?!!! #> I simply hold myself in the highest reguard. so you revere yourself, the way that some revere the dead. by some outsiders that sometimes called 'ancestor-worship', and at times the practitioners don't want this compared with worshipping gods. #> I have no obsession with Christianity, or creating #> an anti-doctrine to it. Once you stop calling #> Satanism a religion, and start calling it a #> philosophy, compare Thelema, or Hermeticism. 'philosophies'. #> the need for it to fit into your special #> guidelines ends. and it stops being so easily inverso-Christianity. #> I "practice" Satanism because I don't worship #> anything. I believe in no god, no heaven, no hell, can you give us a detail of some of your practices? do they include any overt behaviour, or is it just a restraint from and disputation with Christians? #> no guidelines except those I choose to accept #> and live by. The ones I happen to accept/live by, #> fall into the catagory of "Satanism". I can relate. my Commandment and 4 Pillars are keen. #> Purely coincidence, as there's no fate.... I doubt it (that its purely coincidence). # In other words you're a Nihilist strictly speaking, a Nihilist is someone who believes that obtaining knowledge is impossible. # who hates Christianity and quite likes being taken # for a Satanist because you hate Christianity so much. # but you arn't really a Satanist. the tactic of the invasive post-Christian is extremely similar to the displacing neo-Satanist, but there are important differences, sociologically and psychologically. the post-Christian accepts some pre-defined version of their 'satanism' and cleaves to it, struggling to describe their conversation-mates as 'not really a Satanist' on account of a lack of conformity to this artificial form. the neo-Satanist does something similar in that they have a pre-defined exalted Satanism that those whom she seeks to displace are not practicing. they are 'de facto Satanists' or 'pseudo-Satanists' or 'wanna bes'. this kind of competitive displacement is visible in the Neopagan community at points as well as a good number of other religious trajectories. the categories of 'real X' (which we have defined for you) and 'fake X' (which you are espousing) is a shifting categorical marker that separates only by shades the post-X from the neo-X in its believability. neither is very persuasive. in both cases they are describing *other people* and hold up their Ur-qualifications as uppermost in value. neither support individualism, the sovereignty of Satanism's manifestation within a solitary path, or its uninvolvement with religious dogma and simplistic generalizations, like: # ...I guess you get to wear black leather and look matrixy. # *G* Tee Hee. :> we don't need no stinking religion to do what we want. if that includes or does not include matrixizing, then so be it. black is interestingly the focus of a good number of Satanists. depth analysis of why this is the case reveals more than simplistic inverso-religion. blessed beast! boboroshi at-sign satanservice.org: Satanic Outreach Director Church of Euthanasia: http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/ TOKUS WEBLINKS: http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/B/boboroshi/ Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive): http://www.satanservice.org/
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