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Satanists and Thelemites and Neopagans, Oh My!!

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.pagan,alt.thelema,talk.religion.misc
From: (SOD of the CoE)
Subject: Satanists and Thelemites and Neopagans, Oh My!!
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 00:45:11 GMT

50031221 vii om Hail Satan, happy solstice!

#># The worship of Satan is just the flip side of the worship 
#># of Christ - Christianity embracing a dualism as it does.

some Christians are monists, believe it or not. 
#> Why do you believe that satanists all "worship" Satan?  

she believes it because she's ignorant and wants to believe
the lies that Christians have been telling about 'satanists'.
a good deal of fearmongering is part of converstion schemes,
and some have even profited monetarily during the Satanic Panic.
this is part of the reason that the Ninth Scholar's Library
was constructed: for the edification of those interested in
differentiating between slanderous fabrications (whether it
comes from Christians *or* from Neopagans/Thelemites!) and
those who actually continue to practice their religion and
self-identify as Satanists (often solitaries, but sometimes
they coagulate and draw up meaningful manifestos).

#> You might want to do some basic investigation of other 
#> philosophies/religions before you go slinging off against 
#> paths you know not of, yes?

the intended effect seems to be to challenge, not understand.
#> Also, why do you use the term "Christianity" as an insult?  

probably because she is a disgruntled Christian, from a 
family background that includes heavy doses. my guess.

#> There are many flavors of Christianity (likewise of Satanism).  

rationality is divine.

#> You are not [being] compelled to embrace any of these paths, 
#> so why all the hostility?

disappointment, apparently.
#> Why do you think either Satanism or Christianity "embraces" 
#> a dualism any more than a funny-mentalist Thelemite 
#> babbling-on about 2=0???

the use of those 5 fateful letters: S A T A N
			   compare: L O T A N

all manner of fundie and former-fundie Christians believe this.
even when they've converted to Neopaganism sometimes they will
perpetuate these nonsense attestations. 
#># Therefore a Satanist = a twisted Christian.  


#># You're a Christian by another name?

it is arguably true that inverso-Christians are Christians.
that doesn't mean that all Satanists are inversos, however.

I contend that the predominant, serious Satanists are more
often NOT inversos, preferring to have avoided or stepped
away from that kind of Black Mass material of conversion,
just like stepping away from so much dead skin. sometimes
this requires conversions to other religious impetuses like
Egyptian god worship or Cthulhu-assistance or demonolatry,
but by and large a goodly number of Satanists are atheists.
this seems to be supported by sociology materials, those
by investigators in Satanic Panic, and from Satanists too.
#> By what qualifications do you view yourself fit to define 
#> Satanism this way?  Any uninformed, prejudiced, person 
#> can call names. This appears to be what you are doing here...

#># Thelema embraces a kind of monothesism - to try and 
#># attain the undivided Will by practise of the Law.
#> "It is written...."

there wasn't even a citation from 'Thelemic scripture'
given here. it was just a blunt claim about what 'Thelema'
does and does not include or embrace. no support whatever.

#># This does not embrace the dualism of either Satanism 

arguments against this include those which feature Crowley
invoking Satan, making claims about his Holy Guardian Angel
*was* Satan (if you must :>) and his twisted invers-Xtain
rituals like crucifying some poor frog in the name of Jesus.

secondary arguments associate Crowley's primary ritual focus
with Huysmans and Wheatly and Maugham and their fictional
Satanism through Baphomet-adoration in quasi-Christian mass
revisions (e.g. "The Gnostic Mass" of the (c)OTO, which is
said to reference all the sex magic secrets of the order).

a more erudite conversation might be had about the topic,
but it usually buried under the foolish contentions of fundie
Christians, sometimes new converts to their Thelemic Master.

#># or Christianity.  

the question of whether 'Thelema', the religion, is itself
'Old Aeon', is a good one. that it seems to have started on
the back of a satirist (Rabelais) and perpetuated through
the expression of a scandalous and notorious occultist
(Crowley), both apparently in response to Christian norms,
makes plain the obsessions and limitations of their focus.
Crowley was even identifying with the Revelations Beast.

#># So which are you? Satanist (twisted Christian) or 
#># Thelemite?  ....

here's some scripture for Thelemites (Crowleyan):

$	The word of the Law is [ThELEMA (in Greek)].
$ Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look 
$ but close into the word. For there are therein Three 
$ Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of 
$ Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.         

$ Liber Al vel Legis sub figura 220                             

which is considered important by lots of religious 
Thelemites. call me a Thelemite if you like, sure.

#> Now, who's the twisted monotheistic funnymentalist here?

that's the mode of proof-texting that some Thelemite
religious engage. it is as convincing as any other 
religious with axes to grind, points to prove, and
persuasion about their peccadillos to proffer.

the more convincing religious will provide you with
clear references to Liber Al or Crowley's or some
other Thelemic prophet's writings and contend there
is some merit to them for some reason.

Amos Keppler :
# Well, there are basically two kinds of satanists. 

oh sure, now you'll tell it like it is. always 2 of things.

# The christian satanists (with the duality shit) 

point out some "christian satanists" in organizations
for us please. I doubt you'll find many. if you say
they're all solitaries, point to some web-pages of
some examples. I'm sure there's a few you could bring
to light, but the volume of *non*-Christians who are
involved in Satanism pretty much blows this away. 

the 'secondary category' you're segmenting Satanism 
into is fallacious. it isn't part of Satanism so much 
as a queer facet within an ostensibly rival religion.
compare other inversos in dualistic religions who are
contending against the extremity of their parent-trads.
Yezidis are one that some Satanists like to identify.

# and the others. The others, as I understand it 
# "preaches" self determination and individuality, 
# and don't worship anything, and that I do like.

it varies, but self-determination, self-sovereignty,
and sometimes even self-worship are more the focus.

# The christian satanists, and christians in general, 
# however, do not and do. 

apparently they do not talk about self-determination 
and do worship things. agreed.

# So they're really deserving of any scorn that may 
# (and should) come their way.

these values run through Protestant Christian culture
to an extent. some of these diversify themselves to
include all manner of types of worship (as with the
more liberal Anabaptists) and its freedom. 

I think there is very good reason to gather together
neuvo-religions that form in *response* to Christian
precursors and study them together. religions like
Wicca, Thelema, and Satanism may be said to share
some very important things that are very often
downplayed in Christianity and other religions of
the Book as they are popularly practiced and espoused 
(e.g. self-determination, self-derived ethics).

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia:
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive):
---------------- and

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.thelema,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Satanism, Thelema, and Other Religions
From: (SOD of the CoE)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 04:06:27 GMT

50031221 vii om happy solstice!  followups set responsibly (Jane.):
#  The orbit of the Satanist revolves around Christianity --
# and thier obsession with creating an anti-doctrine to it....

examples from people's online materials?

# I don't much like Christianity either.  Get a different 
# doctine not an anti docterine or at least acknowledge 
# the duality is caused by an obsession with the
# Christian doctrine.

your criticism of 'dual' is facile. fundamental documents
in the history of Satanism (recent really :>) indicate
that 'Satanism' is just a name as it would be seen in
Christian cultures. some Satanists indicate that they're
primarily talking about an *anti-religion*, and so the
primary thrust of religion's Antagonist may determine
the name of the cult which resides as its rejectors.

# ...Have you ever heard of a hungry ghost? Met one 
# perhaps? ...

you mentioned hungry ghosts in our other conversations.
your background somehow crosses over into Buddhism?

# How long do demons hang around for?  

how long do you think they do? when we were talking
about Holy Guardian Angels, you said you didn't trust
them either, and that you'd had bad experiences that
led you to doubt spirits. one can hardly blame you,
but do you think your negative experiences are very
representative on the whole?

# This isn't a quick fix.  There isn't a quick fix.

what's broken?

#> I'm talking about mentally. Since I am the one I 
#> worship, once I am dead, I will no longer worship 
#> myself, because I will not have thought. Maybe a 
#> better word should be used instead of worship, 

LaVeyan Satanists throw around the "I worship myself"
language somewhat, but when challenged as to what this
means usually there is silence. I'm presuming it is
predominantly focussed on hedonism, which is supportable
when not pursued to excess and self-debilitation.

#> as I don't literally "Worship" myself. 

why not? why don't LaVeyans put up altars with their
own pictures and get on their KNEES?!!!

#> I simply hold myself in the highest reguard. 

so you revere yourself, the way that some revere 
the dead. by some outsiders that sometimes called
'ancestor-worship', and at times the practitioners
don't want this compared with worshipping gods.

#> I have no obsession with Christianity, or creating 
#> an anti-doctrine to it. Once you stop calling 
#> Satanism a religion, and start calling it a 
#> philosophy, 

compare Thelema, or Hermeticism. 'philosophies'.

#> the need for it to fit into your special 
#> guidelines ends.

and it stops being so easily inverso-Christianity.

#> I "practice" Satanism because I don't worship 
#> anything. I believe in no god, no heaven, no hell, 

can you give us a detail of some of your practices?
do they include any overt behaviour, or is it just
a restraint from and disputation with Christians?

#> no guidelines except those I choose to accept 
#> and live by. The ones I happen to accept/live by, 
#> fall into the catagory of "Satanism". 

I can relate. my Commandment and 4 Pillars are keen.

#> Purely coincidence, as there's no fate....

I doubt it (that its purely coincidence). 

# In other words you're a Nihilist 

strictly speaking, a Nihilist is someone who believes
that obtaining knowledge is impossible. 

# who hates Christianity and quite likes being taken 
# for a Satanist because you hate Christianity so much. 
# but you arn't really a Satanist.  

the tactic of the invasive post-Christian is extremely
similar to the displacing neo-Satanist, but there are
important differences, sociologically and psychologically.
the post-Christian accepts some pre-defined version of
their 'satanism' and cleaves to it, struggling to describe
their conversation-mates as 'not really a Satanist' on
account of a lack of conformity to this artificial form.

the neo-Satanist does something similar in that they have
a pre-defined exalted Satanism that those whom she seeks
to displace are not practicing. they are 'de facto 
Satanists' or 'pseudo-Satanists' or 'wanna bes'. 

this kind of competitive displacement is visible in the
Neopagan community at points as well as a good number
of other religious trajectories. the categories of 'real
X' (which we have defined for you) and 'fake X' (which
you are espousing) is a shifting categorical marker that
separates only by shades the post-X from the neo-X in 
its believability. neither is very persuasive.

in both cases they are describing *other people* and hold
up their Ur-qualifications as uppermost in value. neither
support individualism, the sovereignty of Satanism's
manifestation within a solitary path, or its uninvolvement
with religious dogma and simplistic generalizations, like:
# ...I guess you get to wear black leather and look matrixy.  
# *G* Tee Hee.

we don't need no stinking religion to do what we want.
if that includes or does not include matrixizing, then
so be it. black is interestingly the focus of a good
number of Satanists. depth analysis of why this is the
case reveals more than simplistic inverso-religion.

blessed beast!

boboroshi at-sign Satanic Outreach Director
Church of Euthanasia:
Ninth Scholar's Library (Satanism Archive):

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