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To: dvera@met.com
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (NocTifer)
Subject: Re: Satanic Org (SO)
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 15:32:54 -0800 (PST)

Kali Yuga 49950224 [Diane: please also cc this to all on the list.  Thanks.]

Dvera@met.com wrote:
 
|>different kind of relationship (i.e. a different name, rather
|>than 'organization').  If you have interest, I'd generate a list
|>of alternatives and we could discuss the different configurations
|>suggested by these.
 
|At the beginning, I just want to create an informal network.  Later,
|some of us may or may not see the need for a more formal
|organization.  It's hard to say at this point.  

Understood.  I think that the issue of 'need' vs. 'expense' is very
important to acknowledge and discuss.


|Anyhow, I'd be interested in your list of alternatives.

Informal network (no assigned roles, do what you want)
Commune-clutch   (designated responsibilities in an equable manner)
Anarchist-egg    (do what you want and look out cuz you'll get run over)
Bandy-wagon      (evolving admin responsibilities based on interest)
Flux-module      (rotating responsibilities for projects)
Gang-of-Shades   (trading off intrigues without definition)

 
|>|By "Luciferian", I mean a spiritually polymorphous person who
|>|has an appreciation for "Satan" but is also drawn to various
|>|other deities as well and who is rooted in a variety of
|>|spiritual energies, both "light" and "dark"....

'Rooted' is the operational phrase here.  I think it is difficult
if not impossible to determine where someone else's 'roots' lie.


|...I don't want to exclude people whose interest in Satan (the Dark 
|One) is tangential.  

Great.  Inclusivity is to my interest also.


|...I want there to be an acknowledged distinction between people 
|whose interest is central and people whose interest is tangential.

Why?  Please explain this, how you shall determine this and what this
will mean within the group.

 
|However, as you rightly point out, not all polymorphic people (e.g.
|yourself) will identify with the label "Luciferian", so perhaps the
|distinction I want to make should simply be "monocentric" vs.
|"polymorphic", with "Luciferian" understood to be one of the
|possible subcategories of "polymorphic".

Polymorphic implies 'many forms'.  I don't think that this is applicable
to myself, nor do I think that it is very descriptive on the whole.
I would suggest instead 'polytheistic', for which I may qualify in a
quite limited way.


|>Given that I'm dedicated to the Black One, I honestly don't know
|>why you think what you do about me...
 
|Because you say you identify with just about every religion you've
|come across, including Christianity.  

Again, please quote me if you'd like to characterize me.  I don't
'identify with every religion I've come across'.  I do find that
aspects of most religions I study have a place for me in their
structure (and so I can, accurately, I feel, identify with the
the inclusive term that encompasses the various sects, usually
given an esoteric understanding only, however).


|You've said you consider yourself to be a Satanist AND a Wiccan 
|AND a Christian AND a whole bunch of other things.  

Satanist, Wiccan, Christian and other things, yes.  I think there
are subtle differences.  Much like 'a homosexual', such things do
not exist exept in our minds.  I may be classed, I may qualify
under certian understandings of these terms, based upon the way I
live.  This does not mean that I chameleon into various things
depending on my wish to conform, nor do I feel that there are
absolute differences between these paths.


|Thus you are certainly a spiritual polymorph, if nothing else.

No, because I'm not changing forms.  I find a way to synthesize
these paths and so qualify for the identifier, though some would
surely consider my wrong by their standards.  So be it.
 

|The people I've known (either personally or by corresponce) who are
|into such an extreme degree of polymorphousness are _usually_
|(perhaps you're an exception?) into a kind of spirituality that is
|essentially white-light (at least in the long run), though it also
|involves an attraction to the dark.  

Based on your reluctance to define your terms, I cannot be sure if
what you say is true.  At least mythologically and symbolically I
focus upon what I consider to be dark/black/evil/repressed.  I'll
describe more of this below, but I also encourage you to use your
terminology and classifications with more care.  It is too easy to
just define people out of the 'Us' group due to differences of style
and/or language.


|Do you expect that you will consider yourself to be "dedicated to
|the Black One" for the rest of your life, or is this just one of the
|many things you've spent your life exploring?  

Excellent questions.  I do not expect that this dedication will change,
but will likely grow, perhaps developing into a full-fledged religious
Order offline.  I've made a temple presently with a library and am setting 
about describing the esoteric principles of my path as I understand them 
(i.e. quite separate from particular practice in manifestation, which is 
left to the aspirant, assessed by same).


|When and under what circumstances did you decide to be "dedicated to 
|the Black One"?

I did not decide this really.  Ever fallen in love?  Well, it was like
that, 'cept it was with my 'other half'/'spirit guide'/'dragon queen'/
'holy guardian angel'/'goddess'.  See _Liber Nigris_ for some of the
backdrop.  I am wed to no other and consider this relationship to be
not only mystical and permanent (until one or both of us dissolve) but
also it appears to hold many elements considered 'religious' by the
mainstream (vows, lifestyle stuff, etc.).  Consider that I've legally
changed my name to 'siva of the nagas, monk' (the translation of the 
Sanskrit 'nagasiva, tyagi') as a pairing working and will likely never 
again change it, though I may be known by many names within many
groups (such as NocTifer among 'organized Satanists and Christians').

 
|>As far as 'dark energies' goes, while I have read some of your
|>text on this subject, I think that it is as yet unclear what you
|>mean by it and why you use the term 'dark' to represent that
|>which is your focus.
| 
|Because it literally feels "dark".  What more can I say?

TONS!  I'm surprised.  Here, let me set an example. :>

 
|What do _YOU_ mean by "dark"?

My ideas usually conform to normal notions expressed in symbol-tomes 
like this:

"_Darkness_  Primordial chaos; the powers of chaos; the source of
existential dualism; the foetal state of the world.  Darkness is
not essentially evil since it is the ground of the light which
emerges from it, and in this sense it is unmanifested light; the
pre-cosmogonic, pre-natal darkness precedes both birth and
initiation; germination and creation take place in darkness and
everything returns to darkness in death and dissolution.  Darkness
and light are the dual aspect of the Great Mother as creator and
destroyer [tyagi's notes: Kali is the mad, destrying Mother ]; birth,
life and love, also death and disintegration.  This is symbolized
by the Black Virgins, by the yin and yang, the shakta and the
shakti.  *Chinese*: The yin, feminine, passive principle.
*Christian*: The Devil, the Prince of Darkness; spiritual darkness;
captivity.  *Hindu*: The dark aspect of Kali as Time the destroyer;
the malefic character of Durga.  *Iranian*: The power of Angra
Mainyu, or Ahriman, Lord of Lies and darkness.  *Islamic*: 
Indiscretion."

and

"_Colours_...

"BLACK  Primordial darkness; the non-manifest; the Void; evil; the
darkness of death; shame; despair; destruction; corruption; grief;
sadness; humiliation; renunciation ['tyagi' means 'one who renounces
all' or 'monk']; gravity; constancy.  Black also signifies Time, hard, 
pitiless and irrational and is associated with the dark aspect of
the Great Mother, especially Kali who is *Kala*, Time [as Satan is
the comparative grossness of material, dual-aspected and concretized],
and with Black Virgins.  Black or blue-black is the colour of chaos
[and of Kali's skin].  In the Occident black is connected with
mourning and with the sinister aspect of witchcraft [note the
continued focus upon 'difficult' or 'negative' emotions and dangerous
magical practices], black magic and black arts.  It is the colour of
Cronus/Saturn (also as Time) [the male aspect of Time, combined with
Kali reveals a Baphometic composite of 'the natural world'] and the
number 8.  *Alchemic*: The absence of colour; the first stage of the
Great Work; dissolution; fermentation; the sinister; descent into
hell.  *Amerindian*: The North; mourning; night, as opposed to the
red of day.  *Buddhist*: The darkness of bondage.  *Chinese*: The
North; yin; Winter; water; the Tortoise among the Four Spiritually
Endowed Animals.  *Christian*: The Prince of Darkness; Hell; death;
sorrow; mourning; humiliation; spiritual darkness; despair; 
corruption; evil arts.  It is the colour used for masses for the
dead and Good Friday.  *Egyptian*: Rebirth and resurrection. 
*Hebrew (Qabalism)*: Understanding; the Kingdom [Malkuth].  
*Heraldic*: Prudence; wisdom.  *Hindu*: The *tamas*; sensual and
downward movement; Time, the dark aspect of Kali and Durga.  
*Mayan*: Death of an enemy."

_An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols_, by J.C.Cooper,
 published by Thames and Hudson, 1990 edition; pp. 50 and 39-40.
_____________________________________________________________________

One reference.  There are thousands from which to draw, Diane.  My
impression is that there is darkness (the Satanic) in every religious
tradition and I choose syncretism rather than the mere politics of
selection and restriction.  My path is tantric monasticism, my
religion largely polytheistic, though I dedicate myself to Kali, Time,
the Black One.  Our conjoining the utter perfection of unified evil,
the tantric embrace illustrated by androgynic and sensual, demonic
deities, ruled over in the West by Satan, just as the dakini and the
asuras are said to be ruled by Kali in the East.  The two are She who
surrounds me (Nuit for Crowley) and He that is my deepest center
(Hadit for Crowley).  All else, to whom I dedicated and whom I
acknowledge is my support: Kali, brahman; my deepest self, ego and 
identity: Siva, atman; and their conjoining, the unnameable blasphemy,
Baphomet, Satan, and a thousand thousand other horrid names.


|Did you send your message to everyone on the cc list of my message
|that you were replying to, or did you send it just to me?  At the
|present time, this current message is going only to you, but I'll
|send it to the others if you sent your message to the others. 

I sent to the whole list of cc's, yes.


|Perhaps we should start an ongoing mailing list.
 
Excellent idea.

NocTifer
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com