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To: zazas-l@hollyfeld.org (ZAZAS-L Satanist Elist) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Subject: Re: (Z) Pacts and Power, Satanism and Magick Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:38:55 -0700 (PDT) 49971002 aa2 Hail Satan! nocTifer: #> what psychological, materialistic and atheistic analyses might be made of #> this 'pact phenomenon' beyond a charlatanry designed to entertain horror- #> fiction readers and kids at halloween and scare the fundamentalists? do #> Satanists tend to disbelieve in it, as a means of initiation into Satanism #> and/or their power? what are the problems with presuming there may be #> something of value to blood pacts even if they are misunderstood? Timothy Sutter: # seems to me that any sort of blood pact hocus pocus # should be rejected outright, andthe purveyors of such # heresy questioned as to their motivations in perpetrating such a hoax. I don't understand why this is a response to the text above. BEYOND the notion of hoaxes and charlatanry, you are saying there is NO rational justification or benefit for such a pact? did you read the response by Novasolo, implying an internal resolution in the pact process? the question which you must answer in order to do these queries above justice is 'who or what is Satan to you?' if the term 'Satan' is nothing more than a figure of fiction or means something abstract like 'adversarialism' or 'individualistic pride', then why do you feel that this must be true for everyone? cannot the Jungian shadow function here as an element of interior work that may be assisted by ritual and a temporary symbolic identification of Satan for these purposes? # why would a "true" satanist associate itself with any # of this Satan the Devil mythology? I don't understand who is restricting the significance and/or character of Satan to 'the Devil'. perhaps you have misunderstood and would respond differently if we were to make clear that there are absolutely no restrictions for the purposes of this question (about pacts, etc.) concerning the character of Satan. define what is to be associated with the term or name as you see fit, imagine what possibilities others may choose also and see where these might prove valuable to them. # simply to discredit other satanists by making # those "outside" of satanism to believe that satanism # is somehow connected to christianity. the Faustian corpus contains not only Christian moralism and instruction but at times very amiable and admirable Mephistophelian characters. the pact is not always disadvantageous to Doktor Faustus, for example, and in making our own pacts we can presume that the individual will benefit from the deal. you may be reacting to simplistic notions of Satanic pacts as described by Christians, but this is not the extent of the matter under consideration. # but is a man that uses language and tools ever totally feral? # it would seem that those who proclaim themselves # a wise animal and feral and savage, # while embracing the mythology of man as in # the form and likeness of some sort of deity # are at crossed purposes with themselves. what about embracing the mythology of man as indicative of something within us, some psychological element? what about archetypes and the perspective of gods which allows an integration of these beings to the being of humanity? what about interacting with the forces sometimes associated with Satan like entropy, dark matter, or wild nature? # seems to me that a satanist should make every attempt to # distance onesself from all notion of a literal Satan. then you may not be aware of the very positive and extensive literary Satanic tradition, which likely inspired much of modern Satanism. the Satan of Shaw, for example, is quite the genius, and the Romantic poets were very differently disposed to the character of Satan (casting him as hero) than the condemnatory religious. # if the aim is to lure dissatisfied pseudo-christians # from their tidy slums and convince them you have a more perfect # notion of humanity, then by all means put on the donkey ears and # the horns and carry a pitchfork. my understanding is that there is no one aim, but that Satanists, like most other esotericists, seek to gain from their involvements just as any other religious might do so, except that we are not shrouding it with a false veil of humility and powerlessness. instead we acknowledge the desires we have, attempt to satiate them through our own means, and do not center our activities in reaction to any other religious. # yer not proselytizers now are you? # or are you? no, I'm asking for some clever brainstorming, some reconsideration of this immensely popular and valuable notion of pacts with the devil in a light whereby the individual who sets out to create one benefits and does NOT necessarily accept the limited and restraining cosmology of the Christian which sometimes infuses it. that is, given a vision of Satan which is not contained in the Christian cosmology, how COULD a pact with Satan be set out and what could it achieve which would fulfill Satanic ends? if you don't know what 'Satanic ends' are because you are not a Satanist (as you claim), then see the URL below before responding. ________________________________________________________________________ nocTifer: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com --- http://www.abyss.com/tokus TOKUS-COE Office: 408/2-666-SLUG --- Mother Church (CoE) coe@netcom.com ____________...oooOOO---zazas-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To subscribe send: 'subscribe zazas-l' to majordomo@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe send: 'unsubscribe zazas-l' to majordomo@hollyfeld.org http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven
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