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To: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Subject: (Z) Re: Defining Satanism?!
Date: 15 Jun 1998 21:51:31 -0400

49980615 aa3 Hail Satan!

Nova Solo :
# Why define Satanism at all?

in order to forge an envelope into which to lead the herd to liberation.
 

# I have yet to understand what leads a group of individualists to 
# desire to mold an "acceptable" definition of what Satanism 
# "really" is.  

the individualists don't do this except to prop up their failing egos.


# Don't think you do?  Ever said someone who claimed the title 
# wasn't, in fact, a Satanist? That a particular trait wasn't Satanic?

absolutely.  I have done it for the purposes of emphasizing what I
consider to be valuable in my Satanism, generalizing to extremity
for the purposes of delightful egotism, or to elicit the proper
sense of offense from my discussion compatriot. :>

 
# The Satanic Title:
# In reply to the posted Tyagi/Delf debate sprinkled across various usenet
# groups, P Mitchell-Gears  sums up a popular take on
# defining Satanism, saying:

# >To say "well I know I'm a Satanist even if no-one else thinks so" 
# >is surely self-delusion; the meaning of the term "Satanist" must 
# >be defined by SOMETHING: is it the majority opinion of those who 
# >label themselves as Satanists? (could be) Is it the prescribed set 
# >of views espoused by those ppl who have set themselves up as "the 
# >one true satanism" (A.L etc)? (this is what you do not accept) Or 
# >is it the majority view of the society in which the 'satanist' 
# >finds himself? (this view is very much against the satanist 
# >philosophy, because AFAIK you consider that as rational beings
# >your views are somehow more justifiable and correct than the many 
# >less intelligent beings whose lives are more easily dictated by 
# >a mess of instilled beliefs and herd behaviour.

in response I'd simply say that definition isn't restriction when
talking about meanings as within a dictionary, it is description.


# This is the mentality to which I take exception.
# Let's start with "Why?"   Why must Satanism be defined?  

to assuage the insecurities of those who feel challenged by
maintaining something which can't be 'proven' but which they
feel (usually without a lot of consideration and ascribing
their presumptions to foundations from 'authorities').  if
these authorities were undermined, so would be their membership
and the basis of their identity (horrors!).


# The only purpose behind nailing down a broad definition would 
# be to enable as many people as possible to comprehend what 
# Satanism means.  

definition in the sense of restriction is destructive of the
Satanic spirit of individualism, imposing limitations on what
the individual is presumed to be able to achieve.  it is an
attempt at political power-grabbing in order to make oneself
appear to be authoritative (and can be fun!).


# And we care about that for what reason?  In what way are 
# Satanists to care what the public thinks of them?  

someone already mentioned the practical effects of image in
terms of at least personal security.  I would add that having
an image of a certain type ground into the mass mind could
prove very useful when attempting to MANIPULATE it.  this is
how advertizing and political propagandizing works.


# In what way is any Satanist to care whether or not anyone else 
# understands them?

in any way she pleases, of course.  you seem to be asking about
the basis for the requirements the person you quote thinks are
necessary.  of course they are groundless.


# Each Satanist should feel free to define for themselves what 
# THEY mean by "I'm a Satanist" 

feeling free to do so and actually doing so are a very different
matters.  most people have no idea where to BEGIN to arrive at
a self-definition that isn't pre-masticated for their puny and
insipid selves.  they put on huge overcoats assembled by those
whose taste they enjoy and imagine themselves as filling them
out.  sometimes these fillings come to pass if the mage is very
dedicated to the process.  usually they just look like a cheap
replica of David Byrne and stop making sense.


# but I feel it's incredibly presumptuous for, say, Tyagi to tell me
# that I'm not a Satanist because I don't follow the same premise 
# that he does (not that he would... one of the reasons I get along 
# with him).  

hehehe, then let's challenge that.  it IS presumptuous!  but why
can't Satanism include presumptuousness?  why can't it include
me telling you "dammit!  your restriction from presumptuousness
is totally anti-Satanic!"?  I don't see why it needn't, and it
affords you (and me, later, when I reveal the shift-and-dodge)
to competently oppose such arrogance with wit and pinache.  soon
the herd begins to understand how to defuse presumed authority
as they watch the Masters in the Satanic herd.


# In fact, no other Satanist (and certainly no other person) has 
# any notion what it is to be Me, and therefore has absolutely no 
# say in defining what I call myself.  

of course not, they are saying what THEY are calling you.  that
is the wonderful deception afoot.  you may think that they are
trying to legislate or manipulate you into a different self-
identification (and perhaps if they are immature they are really
doing this), but their statement only holds relevance for them,
and them alone, no matter how many Jean Satanists may come to 
their sides bellowing 'me too!  me too!'


# It strikes me as odd that any Satanist would attempt this 
# level of blind label-slapping.  

get used to it.  any 'ism' (and some avoid the whole 'ism'
business for this reason, btw) will inspire this type of herd-
related activity.  I think it may even be very GOOD for the
ism-herd to engage in self-criticism, challenges, and respectful
argumentation (not repeated flames, which become inane), even
about the nature of their self-identification.  society will
indeed be affected by this self-labelling (especially within
a culture that adorns itself with anti-social appellations as
does that of the Great Martyrdom Cult).


# What you think someone is or is not is your business.

when the self-identification becomes public it is public business.
by saying 'I am a Satanist' in a public forum you are asking for
me to say 'No you aren't and here's why!' :>


# ...do NOT tell them what they are or are not.  

why not?  why not tell you you aren't a Satanist because Satanism
has to do with wild nature and those who are truly dedicated to
wild nature wouldn't be using technology based on the pillage of
the natural world for profit and the depersonalization of the living
being for the benefit of entertainment and 'esoteric discussion'?
of course this might mean that *I* wouldn't qualify either, but
so what??!


# If someone tells you they're a Satanist, deal with it.  If you 
# want to know what they mean by the title, ask them.  If you
# disagree with them, tough shit.  They aren't under any 
# obligation to abide by your definition of Satanism.

great advice. :>
 

# ...Asking me what I mean when I say "I'm a Satanist" will not 
# result in coherent discussion.  My answers are for me alone, 
# and I can't say I care if anyone else ever understands me.

then why bother posting it to an elist or Usenet forum?  confusion
factor?  a living puzzle?  to stir up the poo?  if you're not
here to communicate something when saying it, why bother using 
recognizable language at all?
 

# Satanic Traits:
# Maybe what's Satanic isn't a particular trait but is the willing, 
# willful, cogent exercise of any trait for purely personal, 
# internal reasons.  

this is much more palatable to me, though it does seem to go against
very many specific examples of Satanism as it existed or was expressed
by historical individuals.  we could say that these examples arose
out of their particular time and place and begin to argue the 'ancient'
paradigm of Satanism which LaVey and others have espoused.


# Aiding the weak can be Satanic.  Charity can be Satanic.  IF these 
# traits are exercised, not because society says it's good or JAYzus 
# said to be charitable, but because charity is a good tax-break.  
# Or because when you aid someone weaker than you, it makes you feel 
# more powerful.  Or because aiding the weak impresses someone you 
# want to fuck.  Or helping an old lady across the street 'cause 
# she reminds you of your grandma and grandma was one cool chica-pie 
# when she was alive.

the act as compared to the motivation for the act, yes.
this strikes me as a much more reliable (though untestable)
means of identification, yes.  I think that the 'Satanism only
includes X and does not include Y' type of thought comes from
the Condemnation Squad (largely Christians and Muslims) and
from the immature Satanists who need fundamentalism in order
to keep from losing themselves in the nightmares that their
parents have drilled into them (a reason why LaVey created the
important fundie ideas to inspire greater liberation, shifting
the herd from strict reactionaries to actuators; a parallel
can be found in Gardner's activities).  

 
# What I find Satanic is not the absence of character traits, 
# but the inclusion of any and all traits as they become useful 
# or pertinent.

you're talking about intelligent egotism and hedonism.  these
strike me as also the basis of individualism, and are many
more times relevant than any sort of strict behaviors.  they
begin to actually describe the LIBERATED INDIVIDUAL (again,
along with most of Western religion ignoring the process by
which this is accomplished -- magick).

blessed beast!
________________________________________________________________________
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