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To: alt.satanism,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Subject: (Z) Re: Darkpath as in Starwars Date: 18 Jun 1998 21:48:42 -0400 49980608 aa3 Hail Satan! RE MAquino's novel in the Star Wars universe comparing the Dark Side of the Force to Setian notions of power or philosophy: this is a valuable expression of the support of the wrathful, and it compares interestingly with Westerns like those Italian films starring Clint Eastwood where no White Hats and Black Hats appear. all of it is really a batch of grey, with people associating themselves with that which is favored or preferred, sometimes (usually the more religious or favored by the screenplay writer or author -- nice parallels to the tradition of Logos) as morally superior. VonDraco: # ...I am not entirely comfortable with the DSotF as a descriptor # of what I do as a black magician. not surprising. the portrayal in at least the films is from a Light-side perspective. we should take this into consideration. it is directly comparable to how nuveaureligious pursuits are characterized within Judeochristian religious traditions (as 'demonic' or 'Satan-serving', which they are from a liberated perspective), rather than from their own vision and experience. the question is whether we can find within the film some linkage to indicate a break from stark dualism -- that this may be, like the Ring Trilogy of JRR Tolkien, the tale of a certain people who may not represent faithfully the story of their adversaries (not unusual in the slightest -- imagine the tale told by Sauron for example, or from the perspective of Morgoth in _The Silmarillion_; these types of tales would be valuable to construct). can we imagine the tale being written by these adversaries and revising their own characters to their preference? would Darth Vader have an abiding compassion, a pride of 'tough love' for his boy, seeing the ultimate perfection of what the weakling 'revolutionaries' call 'the Dark Side'? don't these weaklings consistently speak in fearful and moralistic tones about this Dark Side? is it possible that they are merely ignorant and cannot grasp its complexities and amoral basis? there seemed a lot of room in these films to allow for this. I'd compare it directly to Mallory's _Le Morte d'Artur_ and his portrayal of Mordred or Morgan LaFay. # It is depicted in the movie and in later developments (eg, # sequels and novels) as an entirely *natural* force something # like the Tao of Chinese philosophy. could you provide quotes that were the most reflective of Taoism? I'd love to see them. Yoda was an obvious example here, dwelling in the basin of Yin. I like to compare this do Diane Duane's notions of Vulcans and Tolkien's ideas about elves. # While there were certainly aspects of Taoism which, historically, # could easily be labeled 'black magic,' you must be talking about 'harmful magic' here? it is sometimes difficult to make out, when people begin qualifying with terms like 'historically', when the condemning character of 'black' is being used as compared to the exalting or merely descriptive. # I do not think that the theory behind it is the same as My own. # (Unfortunately, My best source for that kind of information from a # first-hand perspective is now dead.) we're talking about duality vs polarity. the moralists and typical creators of space-westerns like Star Wars appear dualists. they are strongly influenced by Judeochristian or other dualist cosmologies and portray things in blacks and whites. this dualism infests the more dogmatic of nuveaureligious down to their roots, taking the Rede and making it into a Law, taking the Law of Thelema and making it into a moralism, taking the individualism of Satanism and flushing it down the drain in service to Grand Ideals (this is why I prefer Stirner over conventional anarchists and the Church of Satan over more restrictive and matriculative organizations). # The force reminds Me essentially of what the Wiccans and other 'white # light' paths tap into. yes, this is what I meant by suggesting that the tales are told from the side of the story that is luxocentric. it has not progressed from this dualistic perspective into a more holistic polarism. however, this does not mean that such a holistic picture could not be inferred from the cosmologies and ethics described *by the people who espouse them*. little time, as I understand it, was ever spent within these works speaking of the philosophic principles of the Dark, for example. the luxocentrics knew little of it beyond what it SYMBOLIZED as an antithesis for their own, limited, ideologies. the authors of the books were not familiar with the Decadents, with the Romantics, with poets and philosophers of egotistic delight. # I consider the basis of the Darkside to be self-reliance and # individual generation of power -- and if *you* generate # the power, then *you* get to decide what to do with it. this type of individualism is of course frightening and adversarial to those who glorify groups to the exclusion of the power of the people who make them up. it is understandable why Dark Vader or his superior (whom I never liked, I thought Vader should have, for story quality, been the final authority) should be associated with Hitler, for example, and his armies called 'Storm Troopers', outfitted in identical armor and portrayed in a way similar to how 'Hogan's Heroes' portrays the Germans or, to a lesser extent, how Herbert's 'Dune' portrayed (or didn't) the initial Imperial Forces. what is typically missing is the real combat. in many cases these warriors in the stories were described as supremely skilled, and it is only the weakness of the storyteller or the screenplay writer which requires that they be portrayed as incompetent in order for the favored underdogs to achieve success in besting them in combat. # Interestingly, the Christians can't seem to agree on who the "good guys" # were. There was a book or three not long after the movie came out by # Christians saying how the "force" could be viewed as a divine element, # perverted by Darth Vader ('the devil') to his own ends. this is the obvious perspective of the series' author(s), who wanted to divide some magical power subordinate to human will into moral categories of use (akin to technology of any sort, the subject also of Herbert's Dune series, the entire notion behind the condemning moralism of 'black'). # On the other hand, I have a copy of a paper (available somewhere # on the WWW) that claims that the movie was a Satanic attempt to # justify Lucifer's rebellion against God ('the Emperor'). of course, this is quite similar to describing other gods as demons. we co-opt the language of divinity or morality out from under the storyteller in order to impart our own cosmology into its structure, completely re-interpreting the contexts and justice of the events. this sort of 'recontextualization' is very valuable, something that I was suggesting be done above with respect to coming to an under- standing of the Dark Side as portrayed in the films. it allows us to achieve demonization and yet it also allows us to begin to rationally come to understand our adversaries or those alien to our way of life (cf. _Faces of the Enemy_, by Keen). I really do think that this discussion pivots on the principle distinctions between dualism and polarity. given two poles either is a rational selection, though one may have repercussions that the other lacks. dualism is typically chosen by the severely embattled and fearful, polarity by those who are secure in their position and generous to their adversaries. for this reason I serve Satan yet do not worship Hir. worship implies, to me, a centering around a pole, rather than some sort of more healthy relationship between them or fluxuating back and forth in a dynamic association of resolution into a whole (which integrates Satan to a whole that I worship). I adore Darth Vader, yet I would probably have difficulties becoming his servant by virtue of his carelessness, his dispassion (the sequence of commanders under him illustrates his lack here, where he displays his myopia about what kind of command situation he was creating, especially when things seemed to be going his way). on the other hand, I found Obi-wan Kinobe to be saccharine, at times judgemental, paternalistic, and yet kindly. yoda was a more delightful mix, though at times yet again coming to his judgements (attaining to a foolish certainty, I'd say) without the understanding of the Taoist sage who says 'So it is.' even 'The Devil's Advocate's Lucifer was more adept at this kind of shift, vying for his ends and the withdrawing immediately to a position of 'there is always the next battle' spirit. # Very well-documented and thorough, as many # Fundie texts are. you've got to be kidding. blessed beast! ________________________________________________________________________ nocTifer: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com --- http://www.abyss.com/tokus TOKUS-COE Office: 408/2-666-SLUG --- Emergency Contraception:18005849911 ----- End of forwarded message from nocTifer ----- ____________...oooOOO---zazas-l@hollyfeld.org---OOOooo..._____________ To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe" to zazas-l-request@hollyfeld.org To unsubscribe your@email.com send "unsubscribe your@email.com" To subscribe send "subscribe" to zazas-l-request@hollyfeld.org http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven
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