THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Subject: Satanism Discussion (TJantsang/nocT) (1 of 2)
Date: 14 Mar 1997 06:05:04 -0800

(Part 1 of 2)

To: TJantsang via messenger
~Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:16:29 -0800 (PST)
~From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
49970309 AA1  Hail Satan!  Happy NULatix!


#2/28/97 Hi Tyagi Noctifer....

received 970307.  most omitted, thank you for addressing these old issues.


#...wondering if you still have the questions you had ...about organization 
#and who's in charge. 

still do.  many CoSatanists have I asked in overt and covert discussions,
most had no idea about upper echelon power-structure or at least would
not disclose what they did know.  could be ignorance.  could be fear.
you've covered some here.  I ask a few more or for clarification.


#I see you are asking specific questions, and reasking and even going
#to the point where "you are gonna get this person pissed off," to find 
#out the answers. I also see that the otehr party doesn't know what 
#you MEAN by your questions, even so you might think the questions 
#are very clear.

thanks for the feedback.  in some measure my queries were not just on
the level of straight inquiry.  I sent meme-q-particles at high velocity
into the matterminds of CoSatanists to see what kind of new material
might be created.  it tells me of the timbre and stability of the portion
of the Church off which it reflected.  Gage was in some measure exemplary
as regards the level of paranoia and apparent ignorance of lower-level
CoSatanists whom I subsequently encountered, others in that forum being
foretastes of the inflexibility of mind I would later find in public 
forums, with certain exceptions.

you appear to be a somewhat different animal, and for this I am thankful.
 

#The COS is an organization - by law. 

by which law?  I was unaware of any formal incorporation, though I gather
as such it does exist.


#It, Satanism, is also a religion now, copyright 1966 as Doc said. 

hehehe, religions can't *be* copyrighted, though y'all can try.  I would
agree that CoSatanism is so trademarked, in spirit if not formally so.
I agree that CoSatanism *is* a religion, and as indeed is part of the 
Satanism overall.


#Nemo...  defiend religion as "binding one back to Something" - Satanism 
#is a religion that binds you hack to reality...  atheism with diabolical
#SYMBOLISM (Satan is a symbol...).... ...there are Satanists ...frmo 
#cultures or background that were PERCEIVEED AS "devil-connected" by the 
#west or by solar phallic culrs of old who perceived them as DARK cults. ok?

given that CoSatanists are atheist materialists using the mythotype of
Satan as a symbolic tool (in rite, in politic, etc.), I can truly under-
stand why they'd be perceived this way (by virtue of the surface-skim
approach most -- even some CoSatanists -- tend to use in comprehension).

'religion' means alot of things.  to define it this way is somewhat
popular.  I can appreciate your intent in so doing.  I tend to use the
term 'religion' to mean 'socialized magick/mysticism', often co-opted
toward the political and supportive of the status quo and disempowerment
of the individual, whether it calls itself "Christianity" or "Satanism".
I mean by "Satanism" something which is *anti-religious* in this sense,
something which originates from Satanists, by whatever their strand.
 

#Organization of COS. It's Doc's business. A business has to be run according
#to SOME kind of rules.... 

my queries focussed on what these rules might be, especially as they apply
to the variety of levels within the org.


#If a Priest goes off half nuts and makes wild claims, "speaking FOR" 
#the COS, he can be kicked out.... 

that's one rule.  makes lots of sense.  protects the org.


#I suggest you make a one on one analogy with COS Satanism and generational
#satanism, with MARXISM....

I had heretofore identified the two on account of the preponderance of
CoSatanists who suggested that "generational Satanists" were a 'Good Thing'
and began contrasting these (what I might call 'Good Guys' after LaVey's
usage of the latter evaluative) with 'Bad Guys/Things', "pretas"/"klippoths".


#...noticed that 'communists' existed and were embodied in all those 
#nomadic societie: they were naturally communAListeic, hence the 
#word "commune-ist." So Marx codified it, .... Engels,...Lenin...Mao....

tried to at least, sure.  there is a marked difference between observing
a natural phenomenon and a fabrication-container.  different contexts,
self-recognition and labelling can twist the development in corruptive 
ways.  to say 'this communalism' and 'that Communism' are the same seems
to me an overstatement and in many cases demonstrably false in practice,
the latter being an artificial production attempting to mimic nature,
along with all the attendant problems of such a mimicking.

from what you are saying you believe that CoSatanists are in some
measure reflective of or supportive of "generational Satanists",
the latter being 'naturally-occurring instances of Satanism' as you
have defined these terms.  please correct me if I err.  I think your
words are fairly clear here, but have bad experience interpreting CoS. :>


#Blance specifically states in Cloven Hoof (CH) that the COS gets 
#its tradition... from the TEMPLARS AND THE MASONS.  That's correct. 

I don't know what "gets its tradition from" means here.  there is some
(quasi-ludicrous?) attempt to identify 'the Baphomet' as the object of
Templar adoration, though how the Templar Order survived the assault of
Philip the Fair (if this is the claim) or what evidence (about the star
and goat-head +) may be found to substantiate these things is beyond me.
references appreciated.  'spiritually-related' is to me different than
'drawing as an historical descendant of'.  I'd like to know which the
CoSatanists are claiming to be/do.


#...these societies, previous to the COS, are TOTALLY SECRET and they 
#deliberately disseminate FALSE INFO to keep hidden. Well, SO DO the
#Soviets. Hermetic Seal. Iron Curtain. Same thing. Same behavior....

seems to be pretty true for US Intelligence agencies too.


#The COS says: "OK, here we are, here is what it is, copyrighted, sealed,
#leagal, OUT IN THE OPEN." 

I don't see any power-structure descriptions in this 'out in the open'
organization.  I may not yet have perused the proper literature.


#Aquino sort of represents, in this same analogy, the
#ex-commie friend of Marx or etc, who decides to present XIANITY as 
#the "real marxism."....

I have noticed this element about the ToSsers, yes.  I have also noted

the response of some CoSatanists (which I presume an error) to join in 
this level of blather, making their *own* claims about being "real Satanism".
it leads me to reject orgSatanism as corrupted across-the-board, though I
see occasional dark-flame-individuals within the orgs and I like some
of the text which comes out of the Councils.


#Magister and Magistra are as high as one can go in the COS aside from High
#priest which is Doc and Blanche....

I was asking about how decisions about the org are made, if it is a
co-regency in which the dictates of the HPriest/ess are law, or if there
is some consensus or vote process which is engaged.


#...to start a political group and claim that it stands for
#the COS would be, I am sure but am assuming, grounds for dismissal....

makes sense.  I'd think that *anyone* claiming to 'stand for the CoS'
rather than just representing it, would be out-of-line, possibly
excepting the HPriest/ess.

from what you say there is an hierarchy within the CoS, which I have
had described to me in like manner as you have done (please let me
know if I have erred in some way as I have understood/reconstructed):

(lay)member - paid $100 and hasn't been kicked out for idiocy
agent       - trusted by the Mother Church to represent the org 
	to media/otherwise
priest/ess  - commendation of ability/status; I gather that this is a 
	required status for being a Grottomaster (head of a private 
	grotto, which is affiliated with the Mother Church and 
	overseen by Her) and whom may publish their own 'zine/mag
magister/ra - priest/ess and member of the Council of Nine, which
	administrates on crucial matters of policy and the like (are
	there 9 of these?)
high prst/s - Council Chair(s); I don't precisely understand the roles
	of these, though I gather they are at least leaders and may
	be ultimate authorities, though I have no idea what would
	happen if the rest of the Council opposed them


#...the COS and generational satanists are
#SATANISTS ALL and they seek to gather into their fold other satanists.

it seems somewhat self-contradictory to me to indicate, on the one hand,
that there are 'people who you can just tell are Satanists' (generational)
and, on the other, that 'anybody who becomes a member of the CoS (by 
sending in the $100 for membership) is a Satanist', unless there is some 
sort of questionaire or you have Litmus Officers who fly out to interview 
every applicant.  am I missing something?


#American dream, the car, the house: do you own these things or do they own
#you? 

this in passing.  I own no car, no house, less and less do I own,
preferring to share, and may eventually cut ties and take up a
nomadic lifestyle.


#our matriarchy posts for the two types of societies. Yes, we are fewer and
#fewer - but Tyagi - WE did not poison the planet and we are much older than
#these agricultural peoples, been around longer....

I gather you associate the nomads/"gypsies" with Satanists.  what you say
about this and about Marx and especially communalism inspires me.  it is
something which resonates in my heart, even though many of my blood
family are pretty capitalistic and have no idea what I'm about.  it is
for this latter reason that I don't think Satanism is genetic or if it
is then it can be partial or passed to some children but not others.  I
don't know if the economic system or lifestyle is truly anything but a
shell, a capsule in which Satanism may be expressed.  my mother and
brother and (possibly, he's vanished) father are all such individualists,
and yet we have incredibly different ways of expressing this in our lives.


#You seem to use the popular (and false) doctrine and dates of Kali-yuga. 

I would explain this slightly.  I am in many ways like you, having a real
distaste for things which are not in some measure materially-based.  I
find the notion of 'the soul' and 'the spirit' to be deceptive and often
twisted into post-mortem dreamland concepts which enslave the herd.  I
greatly like to focus on the notion of a "permanent and unavoidable end"
to individual life, cultures and the cosmos as a whole.  as I am 
dedicated to Kali I came across this idea as regards that of the Yuga
system, and greatly loved the notion that these were the 'Endtimes'.  
it struck home in my present-centered Buddho-philia to read/imagine 
of that last 432,000-year cycle resolving in a PERMANENT TERMINATION 
OF ALL.

I realize that this is not necessarily the popular notion of the Kali
Yuga or the other 3 yugas in the Brahma-Days, etc.  but when I read or
imagined this it inspired me greatly and, as I saw the commonality of
'5000 years into the Kali Yuga' and the 'near-to-2000 years into the
Christian Era', I felt moved to co-opt the latter toward the former,
throwing the '6000-year-old universe' into a tailspin and projecting
not some fabulous Reward-land but a Perfect Obliteration of Everything.

it is a tool of opposition to the Christian norm, a beautiful symbol
of present-centeredness and the finitude of life, and a blasting open
of West-to-East in a surreptitious and devious manner, simultaneously
serving as a timescale within which I may locate my dedication to Devi. 
I'd love to hear your reaction to this explanation and why the nonNaga
timescale is Wrong Wrong Wrong. :>


#You use works written by people called Aryans: NOT BY THE NAGAS WHO 
#COINED THE PHRASE!....

if you'd care, explain further what you take the Nagas to have said
about the Kali Yuga and how the cosmos develops/cycles/terminates.


#...You are one abitrary person! 

am I? :>   I don't notice this.  more often I am just multi-faceted.


#Satanism has been secret - esoteric,
#for centuries. Our doctrines are SECRET, or were! Trying to read a book about
#it by western authors that just doubly mystify others and get rich ripping off
#people is like reading a book by the John Birch Society on Soviet Russia....

I tend to agree with you, really, though I am putting the texts to the
test, since so many people adopt that which comes from BOOKS in the West.
my own way comes from deep within me, sometimes stealing ideas and 
disciplines or histories from books as I go.  usually I will admit to
this theft, sometimes I conceal it for political effect, as with the

Kali Yuga 49970309 Aeon of the Adversary Year 1 Hail Satan!


#no money back." That's the smoke and mirrors aspect.

#The COS get it's heritage from Templars and Masons....  Masonry ...
#is hard to find. But you can find "Masons" anywhere. 

I find this aspect to be integral to most orgs and to many many of those
who identify as the Concealers of the Secret Doctrine (whether by the
name 'Satanist', 'Rosicrucian', 'Mason', 'Templar', etc.).  I agree with
you that it may be felt viscerally, especially with shared time, and that
otherwise it is just a guess, a label, possibly a sham.  I agree that
'the real thing' is hard to find.  I think may well be true among the
CoSatanists and Satanism also, but I don't expect CoSatanists to admit it.


#...So there IS a practical difference. Masons stick together and really
#help each other - they have the money, power and clout to be able to DO this.

my impression was that the shift which Mr. LaVey instigated that put the
ToSsers out in a huff was an attempt to establish *just this sort of
real connection to power* rather than to some 'mystical god'.  do you 
agree?


#...Roots 1 and 2...
#...Compliment that with Michelet....

_Satanism and Witchcraft_?


#real bone to pick with those who mock me and my kind out. IF NOT FOR 
#OUR KIND,

question: don't you consider the Templars and Masons to be Xians?  if
not, why not?  didn't or don't they tend to be so now?  aren't alot of
the rites of Masonry focussed on the life of Jesus Christ?  I am very
anti-Mason and mostly because of the idiocy I've seen from them, though
I've also seen some exceptions.
 

#"You have the rights you have
#NOW on the backs of US, ON OUR BLOOD and ON OUR STRUGGLE. And I see  you do
#not DESERVE it because you'd abuse it and bring it all right back to where it
#was BEFORE we fought not just for OURSELVES, but FOR EVERYONE." 

what you describe is precisely what I mean by the Satanist/herd duality.
'rights' and the power of the individual derive from the acts of those
who I would qualify as 'Thelemites' or 'Satanists'.


#...You are quite young, Tyagi - I assume this fmor what you say and
#DO NOT say. You don't know these things. ODD. 

I don't claim to be old.  I don't find that age is a necessary indicator
of wisdom, though they are often correlative.  I don't value knowledge
of history and the head all that much.  the knowledge of the heart and
of visceral doingness strikes me as a far more important study -- one
which cannot really be obtained within books, even while books can be
important study-aids (or trap, depending on how we approach them).


#Carducci: Hymn to Satan. 

thanks for the reference.


#...(the Assassin High
#Priest Hugh dePayens formed the Templars, 1118 A.D., by the way....

where did you get the impression that the original Grand Master of 
the Knights Templar was a Hashishin High Priest?  you sure you are
not talking about Jacques de Molay?  even if so I've not seen refs
to support either claim and would be glad for reference.


#...they want to keep their power and
#position with all the MATERIAL WEALTH that goes with it. OK? 

I tend to agree strongly, yes.  it is a self-deception at best.


#...you should not have questions as to WHY we'd want to keep ourselves 
#and our knowledge SECRET from these destroyers - the ones we call 
#klippoths or pretas. OK?

here I think you go too far.  having questions, analyzing the bases
for secrecy and deception is very very important.  without bringing
such things up the power will merely change hands and we'll find
ourselves the victims of those we thought we'd known.


#...The MEDIA is who gave Doc the name Black Pope....  ...nickname as
#a friend.... not a negative thing....

ok, so I gather it isn't used within the org itself except this way.


#...when you go and "turn it back" on people by saying things like "you
#obviously know it and use it because you just did" or something like that, 
#to antagonize the person you are asking questions of. 

how much can they take?  if they make illogical statements, will they
admit this?  can they admit they don't care for logic as the arbiter
of truth?  my turning-backs are a form of test, especially after finding
that initially the response is deceptive, secretive or just plain wrong.


#writing, written words, are the LEAST dionysian medium of communication? 

understood.  when this is all we have there are continuums of response
and expression which can inspire or describe the nature of the individual
on the other end, how they react to certain types of challenge, etc.  it
is a type of sounding.


#OH, the C of 9, as far as I know, is administrative and I believe that all
#incorporated businesses/organizations, HAVE such a "council" tho they might
#not call it that. 

additional info about what this includes, how many people, how decisions
are made within it, etc., would be appreciated, thanks.


#...You can define
#a satanist in anyway you choose to define it. But that doesn't make what you
#then define a "satanist" at all....

it does not make someone a Satanist as you have defined it to do this, 
agreed.  my point isn't to do anything but acknowledge that the language
*will* be corrupted, co-opted, and to say this flat-out.  coming forward
with this understanding sets in motion an auto-evaluative for those who
have at least the potential to awaken their Satanism.  the term will be 
used by all manner of individual to mean its relative opposite.  pointing
out the relativity of context and malleability of language is important
in the defusing which will have to be done by those who come after us.
I am assisting them in this as I go about my expressions.


#"John C. Davis" got pissed. "Star 9" answered your questions in the INNER
#sense - problem is, you were asking a practical outer type question, almost a
#political one. Am I right? It's funny to see how the lines of communication
#broke down completely.

lots of folks 'got pissed'.  thin skins.  young, tender hearts.  tells me
what kinds of people I was dealing with.  deep wisdom doesn't get caught
on the terminology or approach, it has seen it all before.


#...the Satanist goes thru a kind of INNER "degree" experience.
#SELf-actualization might be a term for it. Many if not most satanists join 
#the COS or other because they have christ-bound hearts, they are throwing a
#tantrum, they are SCREAMING (wailing, I call it). They are the ANTI-xians.

with this I tend to agree strongly.



#...He is, in this sense, more "xian" than the easy-going type of 
#Catholic who is merely Catholic by family tradition and not religious 
#at all, per se. Many laymembers of COS are in this stage. 

here you differentiate 'laymembers' rather than 'just members' so I
presume that you merely mean 'those who are not Priest/ess/es'.
what type of screening is there to prevent these 'more xian' folks
from entering into the Priesthood?


#grow inside. They "get over it." They also come to realize that the "xianity
#WITHIN THEM" is not just due to some myth called Jesus, but due to an
#osmo-culture and HIS OWN CHOICES in LIFE.... 

in this sense it is less than genetic.


#...Many Priests are sort of half-way between "getting over" this kind 
#of tantrum and still having the tantrum - I mean, they SLIP INTO it.... 

it is something I have noticed, yes, and prevented me from becoming a
member based on what I saw, though I did not oppose the CoS on this
account (only the people who addressed me with their vitriol).


#...The overwhelming view of Magisters and Magistras I can speak for, ARE
#over this - or they are people who never even went thru these stages due to
#the way THEY grew up and were enculturated in THEIR OWN cuultures. They are
#not ANTI-xian. They are simply: NOT-xian....

it is this which I find in many LaVeyan expressions.  Bartonian mostly too,
though I'm not sure about who else might be Magister/ra and what of their
writ I have seen.


#...There is a
#definite shift of reference going on - it's clear to me - between what Star 9
#said to you and what you asked of him/her - which ended up (I knew it) in John
#Davis railing at you. 

I saw this and appreciated Star 9's expressions very much.  I found it
rather sad that the forum was being based on the *other* people rather
than on those like Star 9, however.  it was this which got me out of
that forum and just watchful of rational expressions such as Star 9
and, to some great degree at least within our correspondence, your own.


#...Priests do not boss members around and often members don't even get 
#to meet Priests or Magisters. There are many Magisters in the COS that 
#NO ONE knows about, also so who'd ask them anything if they're not known? 
#By the same token, the neo-satanist meber of the COS or other, might 
#self-actualize and realize that he is NOT a satanist. That's cool! At 
#leas the KNOWS himself better.

very lovely, thanks.


#One other thing, I have to own up to this and I'm SORRY about it. Way back in
#1995, Peggy N. DID ask me to explain things you were asking about. I am ALSO
#an authorized spokesperson for the COS. I was engaged in exposing the TOS
#pseudo-science, seperating TOS from COS which required me to flame the Tossers
#off first to make a clear path, and also busy doing other stuff to boot. As a
#result, I brushed you aside. I wrote Peg and told her to tell you to just buy
#the stuff from me, it's all there andI really DID NOT WANT TO restate all of
#that. But I didn't even see WHAT you were asking, which I'm just seeing now!
#I'm sorry about that. I fucked up: yeah, I actually do that sometimes
#(smile)... TJ

no problemo.  I truly understand about designated time-effort.  do as
you please, for that is my Law. ;>

nocTifer
 tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
----------------------------

Part Two follows

Path: kudonet.com!kudo20!tyagi
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Satanism Discussion (TJantsang/nocT) (2 of 2)
Date: 14 Mar 1997 06:08:34 -0800
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(Part 2 of 2)

To: Tani Jantsang via messenger
~From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer)
~Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:58:20 -0800 (PST)
Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga
49970310 AA1  Hail Satan!   SAVE THE PLANET, KILL YOURSELF!


#upon further reading heavy rap between you and Vad, ...Re: defining 
#"satanists" and relativism.

your Part Two received on Kali Yuga 49970308

'heavy rap'?  Vad provided heavy slap.  I wasn't interested.  consider
that the method of your (plural) proposition (bulk text, rants, etc.) 
may be an obstacle to communicating your meaning.  it has certainly 
turned me off to most of it, especially the way Vad goes about it.


# Wish you read
#outt stuff for sure, now. It would answer it - ALL of it.

I continue this exchange *despite* the bulk text because the rants
are being omitted and I hear you speaking *to* me rather than at me
(even if you aren't always directly responding to me by quoting what 
I say so I can get a bit of context).


#...The god-king imperialist "lord it over others" type with strict 
#hierarchies and sexual roles. Versus the equalitarian cooperative 
#type that share things. Every single non-human primate EXCEPT THE
#BONOBO is of the first type in how they structure their society...
#...when imperialistic humans came into being: with agriculture.... 
#Humanity now fell within two given parameters and became LIKE two
#different kinds of humans living in different kinds of societies, 
#not to mention different habitats.... 

I'll get feedback on this from my biologist friends.  thanks.


#they feel cursed, they make insane dichotomies about dark and light and they
#HATE the dark and consider it evil. 

manichaeanism, yes.


#What our kind has written is read by these
#dualists and MISinterpreted every single time. Taoism, Tantra, even Kaballah
#written by NON-sedentary Hebrews that claim they were given this BY US, by
#people called "Serpents."....

I can confirm that the Madhyamika school of Buddhism (considered by some to
be nondualist) claims to have received its doctrines from NAGAS, which fits
into your assertions also.  the nagas are said to have been repositories
from (Gautama) Buddha during his life as they were an advanced teaching too
progressed for those who were practing at that time.  of course all of that 
could have been fabricated post-mortem, and may describe the kind of
relative difference of maturity you seem to imply in your race-theories.


#It's like a pictogram. But how a Taoist versus a Tantrik versus a Ninja in
#Japan versus a Pythagorean Mason - how each will BEHAVE is another matter.
#WHERE DO THEY LIVE? UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS DO THEY HAVE TO SURVIVE? Ninjas
#became warriors. Pythagoreans became saboteurs and spies. Taoists became monks
#who could kick ass in 1000 ways (Kung Fu) and Tantriks became all of these
#things depending on where they lived and at which time, some remained loners
#and lived in the boonies in peace. Others became warrior lamas (my granduncle
#did this). 

this is very much like what I was saying in previous message (Part 1 of 2)
regarding my own family.  very interesting.


#The COS does not have a heritage from these eastern groups at all;
#they have a western heritage PREDOMINANTLY FROM the pythagoreans or "real
#masonry." 

please explain of what this "heritage" consists.  are you saying there is
some social remnant of Pythagorean secret cult which the Special CoSatanists
have contacted and which inspired the origination of Satanism via LaVey?
or is it more of a 'spiritual lineage', 'descended in spirit'?


#FEEL and MOVE TO the same thing that they FEEL: it's a force that you can't
#see like energy or matter. LaVey called it Satan. Grandpa calls it Mahakala.
#Robert Price, PhD twice over in theology and E. thought, and mythos scholar,
#figured out that HPL's Nyarlathotep is BOTH the traditional witchy Satan AND
#Mahakala. It was easy for him to see. It's easy for me to see too: Satan IS
#Mahakala; 

I also hear from CoSatanists that Satan is 'human nature', and 'the 
Balancing Factor of Nature', and 'a mythotype tool useful in rite' (which
I can see could be considered a 'yidam'.  in this way I do see that your
expressions have value (not knowing Mahakala very well it is difficult
for me to be sure, though I have noticed a similarity between Mahakala and
Kali).


#...Why was this a nightmare to him when it is LOVE, JOY, WONDERFUL to us? 
#HPL was not one of us: that is why. He found HORROR and wrote horror. 
#We find BEAUTY.

while I don't really appreciate the 'us/them' dichotomy that you draw out
(it truly participates in the kind of dualism which you say is 'not part
of our teachings'), I do think your expressions concerning HPLovecraft
are quite possibly reflective of his relationship to LIFE (in that he
appears to have been polarized around considering it a horror) and to
MORALITY (in that he had apparently very conservative and dualistic
ideas and spoke about these occasionally -- it also comes through in
his portrayal of the 'dark primitive (wild) cults').


#...MANY KINDS OF humans have felt this and have made up their own
#"solar phallic cult" or dualist doctrines. 

I don't know why you call it 'solar phallic cult'.  there are Saivites
and Thelemites who seem to cluster around this too, so I wonder where
the line is really drawn.


#...In this way, with these natural parameters (not dogmas
#but parameters put upon us by nature of what kind of animals we are),
#Satanists ARE of many types and they "do satanism" in their own ways, whether
#they call it "satanism" or not! Some of them think they are CHRISTIANS! Just
#as some christians think they are satanists....

this is what I have contended all along.  the labels are irrelevant, even
if there is a real difference between people as to their character (I
personally find it more valuable to associate it with human maturity
rather than some sort of racial heritage, though I agree that heritage 
and maturity can be strongly linked).


#...They are also RELIGIOUS fanatics
#that would choose to live in the middle of an Islamic warzone because "GOD
#gave them that stupid fucking land" as if this is true. They are the mashugena
#ones; NOT the atheists who used to be Jews.... a lot of different things and 
#thought and behaviors all going under the name "Jew" but you will not FIND 
#argument about "WHO IS a Jew or not." OK, Tyagi? 

in my brief exposure to Judaism I have come away with similar feelings,
being amazed at the categorization-schemes and their occasional ambiguity.
this seems pervasive in most Religions of the Book.


#...The satanic jews,
#that is, Jews who FELT this dark-force and innately came up with the same dark
#doctrines we did, on their own, independently, were called OPHITES (The
#Tanaim) and Ophite means Serpent. OK? It refers always back to Naga tribes,
#Chandravansa or Chan, Hsien, Zen, Dzyan - the same word in MANY languages and
#dialects. 

you asked me not to get all tied up with the terminology, but I have been
instructed that the terms 'Ch'an' and 'Zen' are derived from 'Dhyana'
and relate to a system of Buddhism that has changed over time.  some of
your language (another being 'Hsien', which may relate to divinity) is
confusing to me in its association.  I will have to refer to your list
here in further research, thanks.


#What is the indigeous Slavic (or Oguz) deity? Charnaya Bog. Is that
#the Satan of the xians? NO, their word for that is PERUN. What is Charnaya
#Bog? It is Mahakala. OUR Satan. 

the issue of which gods may be equated is a very important one in the
study of mythology.  on the surface this is over-simplified, though I do
agree that at times we may draw parallels and see the connections between
gods of different times and locales.  equating them is a very controversial
claim and one which I typically associate with politicians or fanatics.


#...Wh ois it that claled this a "deity concept" to begin with? DID WE? 
#NO. Christians who wrote about us called it that because they could 
#not fathom it outside their OWN GODIST VIEW....

I shall accept that your assertions as historically-based for the moment.  
it appears to me that if groups of people (such as nagas, ophites, the others
you mention) may be associated with what I would (biasedly) call 'more
mature metaphysics and religion', then I am left with genetics and culture
as to their foundation cause.  I have noticed that genetics are not reliable
and have met people within a variety of genetic strands whom I would in
some manner classify as 'Satanist' by my (even our) standards, but there
were some very important *cultural commonalities* as regards how parenting
is carried out, what values were emphasized, etc.  either in childhood or
through a maturation process.  it can become a 'nature vs. nurture' debate.


#...those that FEEL THIS
#FORCE INSIDE THEM, it's quiet and peaceful and dark,- also feel themselves to
#be part of nature and never HAD to think about this. THEY are your satanists.

it must be this force inside them, as you say (I typically relegate the
'energy' of Wiccans to a subjective experience of consciousness-movement),
that you refer to when you speak of 'the Black Flame'.  I have seldom
heard Satanists speak clearly of this in response to my questions, though
what you say here does appear to support a definition.  any more you'd
care to say about the Black Flame I'd like to hear.


#They will DO satanism no matter if they become priests for the catholic
#church. They'll DO satanism. Just as xtoids will DO xian no matter if they
#wear pentacles.

it is this exact phenomena I have seen and why I cannot accept that any
membership in some organization constitutes proof of one's Satanism,
especially one so fluid as the CoS.


#...we tend to have a "LOOK" and so do the xtoids. ...They'll NOT be able 
#to get away from that CARNAL FACE.  Are we different races?  Well, the 
#Aryans claimed we most surely are. They claimed they hated us. Well, we 
#hate them TOO when we are around them; otherwise we don't think about them.

because something may have developed AROUND genetic lines (in terms of
'races', which is a very ambiguous and LOADED term, after WWII) does not
necessarily mean that it is a feature of genetics.  culture may also be
involved in some manner, possibly in reflection or inspiration of those
genes.  

my point is that forever separating 'us/them' may prove to be
fallacious and winds up being "racist" if taken to extremes.  I know
that you are accused of racism.  I think what you say *can* be so
understood, but I am interpreting your words differently.  you are not
just talking about physical and cultural features and reasoning to the
superiority.  you are describing cultural manifestations of value and
remarking on their connection to heredity, which may or may not be
hard-wired, as I've said.


#So there is relativity within a given parameter, the parameter is TYPE.
#
#I believe Phil wrote of this in the "herd/loners" post. I can see people
#getting ticked that the stuff's there and you didn't read it. But you ask 
#them to repeat it. Right, they should simply point you to it.

the tactic of discussion is apparently lost to "these people" (I have called
them Tanidrones) of whom you speak.  instead of reflecting the manners
which you have outlined as is part of 'your cult', they become irritated
and vitriolic, sending the conversation into a tailspin.  

after that I cease to be interested in making efforts to understand 
their rhetoric, since if it merely leads to their impatient rants and 
mimicking prose I can't trust their evaluation of source in any case.  
I place it on my 'Low Priority' stack, ask them to repeat the materials 
to which they refer, and watch what happens.  usually this terminates 
the interchange, which is fine by me, since it was becoming a 
one-way flame-lecture as it was.
 

#...what satanism could BECOME with a majority of "non-satanist xtoids" 
#running the show, or trying to: it becomes the TOS! I thought that was 
#perfectly clear?

actually your cultic language ("xtoids", "xians", etc.) does make for a
rather large gulf in clarity.  the way your ideas are communicated (often
in long, ranting paragraphs) doesn't help.  nor are your arguments, as they
are presented, and certainly less so the drones who echo you, always very
persuasive.  having taken the time to listen more carefully to your 
expressions to me, rather than as expressed within a 'Fact Sheet' or 
through the drones, I begin to understand you more clearly.

your description of the psychological, theoretical, sociological and
economic differences between those whom you consider (y)our kin (the
Satanists) and those against whom you apparently feud (the Xtoids),
I do more clearly understand the *characteristics* you find valuable,
where you are saying they are to be located and from whence they
originate.  thanks.

as relates to the ToS, I think your generalizations are very ambiguous,
but with exposure to your other essay on the ToS and its relationship
to the 'Xtiod' combined with these letters I see what qualities you
find objectionable in the ToS itself, yes.  I have found them problematic
myself prior to your mention and see them to some degree in all orgs.


#I have to wonder (sincerely) who are you? Are you the House of Chaos or are
#you a House in Disorder? Ah, 'tis thee, SHIVA! (With a touch of Mao...) 

this is the central question of my life, yes.  the Haus Kaos is rarely a
House of Disorder, though it can unexpectedly (and expectation appears to
be a large part of what LEADS to Kaos, albeit as a side-effect) become
so at any time.  

who is 'nagasiva' to you?  did the Nagas like Siva very much?  my 
impression is that this is a very important yidam, especially in 
relation to Kali, though I fabricated the name myself in honor of
Nagarjuna along Saktist lines.


#...every single black or Amerind
#person I showeed all this stuff to had NO TROUBLE grasping it even if strange
#words had to be defined, and neither blacks nor Amerincs are from the same
#culture as I am - 

I suspect it might come hard to those of African or Amerinds who had 
firmly accepted the Christian ideologies, but I could be mistaken.
the bulk of the US is Christian or heavily-influenced by them, and 
most people appear to place some emphasis on surface-level 
interpretation of text.  

I find the latter to be true within most every religious organization 
or culture without exception, even those you might consider 'Satanist'.  
it is, as I see it, related not to genetics, but to maturity, and you 
point this out in your description of the various individuals within 
the CoS and whether they are 'ANTI-Xian'.

 
#they are strange to it as you former-xian?(I read you claim
#to be xian sometimes)?, European? types are. 

what you say (once I understand it -- the package is what I found to be
skewing the picture, not the particular ideas, which are familiar to me)
is not that strange to me, though I agree that to Xtian-US-Euros it is
liable to be so.  you could make it much *less* confusing if you were
to enter into their religious terminologic set (one I haven't taken the
time to completely integrate, though it incorporates things like the
differentiation between 'apostles, priests, ministers, presbyters, etc.'.  

I am of Euro-heritage, but my family (at least in the immediate, it is 
difficult to say beyond this since it's small and I don't know them all) 
did not accept pop-Christian values/beliefs/practices and I was raised 
within a nonreligious home (it was spiritual, but with a valuation of 
wild and human nature as integral, rejecting the cultish and oppressive 
to individual liberty).


#who we are and who they are, they recognize us on sight. Manny of THEIR
#philosophers have written about us dark cults and contrasted us to themselves:
#the sun cults. They KNOW it's racial. This is not some vague secret, Tyagi;
#it's pretty well known. Aryanists include the Jews as part of the dark cults,
#allies of us and "mixed" with us. They have good eyesight!

your terminology appears to be inconsistent.  you have said that Jews
beyond the Ophite were 'not of us' as I remember, though I may have
misunderstood.  I would like you to describe some of the physical or
qualitative features of this 'special appearance difference', since
1) I don't get graphics here and 2) tend to think 'racial' theories
are mostly cultural biases generalized.


#...Lydia Gage ...doesn't seem to KNOW, ...about Doc and P. Gilmore and the
#administration as people and speak about autocracy. Let me tell you - SHE IS
#WRONG....

the willingness to speak whereof one does not know and attempt to 'baffle
with bullshit' is a quality I despise.  I have seen it in every org, and
when I saw it in that CoSatanist elist I was very disappointed, especially
when others didn't call people on it.  I was content to simply point it
out and become the Scapegoat.  social groups appear to replicate this kind
of behavior and role-play, those who do not submit to the Party Line are
cast out (outcaste) and I tend to think this is usually the true Satanist
who is not copping to the program.


#Doc HAS to draw some lines now due to practical and bad shit that
#happened in the past - he HAS to draw lines - also because of the crazed
#accusations.... 

so it is Mr. LaVey who draws these lines?  by dictum or persuasion?
as I asked above in Part 1, is he the leader whose opinion carries
weight (if so, how is difference of opinion/will resolved?), or does 
he wield an unopposable position in the Church?


#...Doc might be an "autocrat" in the same sense that
#the owner of a company might be one, but otherwise: NO WAY. And you sure do
#not have to join COS to find out about it since their publications are public.

company owners have a variety of directive influence within any given
organization.  I was attempting to determine if he is captain of a ship
which he rules without opposition, whether there is the possibility of
mutiny, change of captain beyond his death, etc.  if there are no clear
procedures established as yet for this, then that is one thing, but I
was asking about potential, likelihood and practical delivery of will.


#There is no comparison between the TOS and the COS save that Aquino took the
#verbiage of the COS. The TOS is a bonafide CULT, Tyagi. 

on its face this is completely false, though I think I know what you
are saying.  I'm saying that there exists a structural and terminological
similarity between the two, and that in this way they can be contrasted
and compared as to how they function and toward what they are headed.
you are speaking of their overall demeanor and I understand your claim
and to what you refer, though it doesn't address my questions about
form and labels.  

you've begun this slightly in reference to the trapezoid, and I had
already known about the Aquino-trapezohedron-Lovecraft connection,
though I didn't find anybody in the forums of CoSatanists who were
evidently aware of it.  I began to imagine structural propositions 
since nobody was aware or honest enough to lay it out.  I got no 
response.  drawing blank stares or silence, I withdrew.


#Why is the COS, in fact, a group of individuals or freethinkers without this
#being an oxymoron? Because Evgeny Yezhovovich Beelzebov (I love it) can join
#it, tell no one, never tell anyone, never write to anynoe after that and
#that's that. ! He's in the COS. NO one knows it, no one ever get to know it.

unless he begins to speak for the organization, in which case he ceases to
be 'telling no one'.  expression is a determinant of membership, really of
relationship to the org (adversarial or cooperative) regardless of the
condition of said membership.


#Where Aquino got the unoriginal idea to call LaVey's Trapezoid a Trapezohedron
#is where Aquino tried to co-opt Lovecraft who mentioned the thing in a story:
#Haunter of the Dark. LaVey's idea had to do with geometrical shapes and their
#psychological effect on people, with a lot of data to show what he meant -
#very early CH issue. The idea was original with Doc who was not going off half
#mystically crocked on Lovecraftian fiction. That's the whole thing. 

yes, I pieced this together from reading some reviews of Lovecraft, LaVey's
writ within _The Devil's Notebook_ and a few direct CoSatanist comments.


#But WHAT is the trapezoid?:
#The Trapezoid is the lower half of the Masonic eye/pyramid symbol, Tyagi. Look
#on the dollar bill! Should read our stuff, I'm telling ya! We got pictures in
#there too, xeroxes of some old stuff. Nine was LaVey's choice because he IS
#and always was musically gifted - 9 is the well known number not only of the
#triple goddess, but of THE MUSE. It's also purely Pythagorean, figured in
#Pythagorean and Elusinian rituals and includes Masonic things which are TO THE
#LETTER identical to the Eleusinian where they only substitute the Hellenic
#words with Egyptian code names, such as Isis, Osiris, etc - BUT NOT SET! The
#lower trapezoid in the Masonic symbol (ugh, this is IN our articles,
#explained) is the CARNAL MATERIAL reality we live in, it represents this. The
#upper triangle with eye represents the ONE IMMUTABLE UNKNOWABLE. The E. Star
#(female Masons) imagery is with the five pointed star, 2 points up, and put in
#place OF that trapezoid. The star IN the trapezoid with the triangle and eye
#is ALL of the symbol. OK? 

thank you for this explanation.  unless I hear objections from you I will
be ferreting this out to networking documents or at least relaying it within
Satanist forums.  note: your lament that you are having to repeat yourself
when your text "is in our documents" is somewhat misplaced, as I have said.
if you want it to be more accessible, then I suggest you change your style 
or get an editor to do it for you.


#Doc uses the Masonic symbolism in the correct way.  Aquino took that too 
#and of course, misuses it....

this is a type of dualism which I tend to reject as immature.  I'm unsure
why you think there is a 'correct way'.  what if Aquino and Co. are not
trying to be 'true to the Masons'?  what if they like to co-opt Masonry
and its idiocy?  why isn't what you are saying the same as when Wiccans
say that Satanists "misuse the pentacle upside-down"?  (I know that the
Gardnerians use it point-down for 2nd Degree, but this only exemplifies
the stupidity of some Wiccans -- my point is about radical dualism,
something from which you claim to distance yourself on the one hand and 
yet seem to exemplify at other times.)


#...It's a SYMBOL, but of something real - PI. The star is this too: a
#glyph. The ONLY "Jew" to use it was David El Roy of Khazaria, a Turko-Tatar in
#fact, and believe me, every occultist in Europe took note and wondered what
#they fuck he was up to using that symbol.... 

I now begin to see that by 'Jew' you describe a distinct subset.  I had
suspected this, but it is *very* unclear otherwise.  no problem for me
to understand now, but I do think I realize why your message may be
horribly misunderstood (due to the way you use language -- I do the same
thing myself, but I expect to be misunderstood and include caveats, and 
I don't flame people when they misunderstand due to the lingo-diff).


#...when people approach others
#they can either approach as equals or as "wanting something" from them,
#material something or not. My dealings with the "higher-ups," and the highest
#up, in the COS have always been equal equal, friendly and sincere....

I gather this means 'equal' in a sense of respect, not as regards one's
position within the organization.  I have found this to be the case
within the Caliphate OTO with the Officers with whom I have had
interaction (some for years).  I'm glad to hear this about your
experience of the CoS.


#...I don't feel (FEEL) higher than or lower and ANYONE, Tyagi, even if I 
#know a person is my boss at a job, or an expert in infectious diseases 
#and Professor and Chairman of the department I work in - I approach them 
#EQUAL EQUAL. That's how I AM....

this does not always come through in your rants about 'racial heritage
and generational Satanists', as I've tried to make clear above in
response to your ideas of 'races' and 'the look'.  the manner in which
you write *can be easily taken* as elitist.  this appears throughout
the Satanist culture as I've seen it, though my offline meetings (few) 

with Satanists, CoSatanists and non, were very cordial.


#...I don't "SEE" hierarchy, age, gender or race in my one
#on one dealings with "embodied sentient consciousnesses." ...

I understand this, since it is also how I interact with people.


#...I react STRONGLY to people who (never ever in person!) try to 
#"talk above" me the way honkies all tend to do this, or most
#of them. I FLAME THE FUCK out of them....

it is exactly this reaction which I have had to your Drones, btw,
but I have found that 'flaming the fuck' out of people is usually
not worth my time.  the idiocy of their response is self-evident.


#I KNOW they don't even realize they are doing it - but it drips in 
#every single WORD they write, no matter where. It grates the shit 
#out of people like me and out of a lot of ethnics these days
#that ARE speaking up about it if they don't just react and hit the 
#person. And that happens a LOT here. LOT!!

I do understand, though your use of 'ethnics' is somewhat confusing
given your claims above.  I think I know what you are saying and
have similar values.


#...I'm reading your own words and you have been getting responses. 
#You do not TRIGGER that kind of thing, that kind of INNATE enmity 
#like Clore and others did. 

you and I have different ways of relating to 'triggers', it appears.
I used to flame the shit out of people like those about whom we are 
speaking, but I found that the reaction was *in me*, and so I set
out to determine what was going on.  now I am more careful and
efficient(?) in my expressions, designating particular effects for
particular interactions and conserving my time, since most people
aren't worth my bother.  in this exchange I see that you *are*
worth my bother, but not for flaming, for sincere interaction and,
despite my repulsion at the manner of expression, continue.


#I can see the way you drift off, why why why, that stuff - but 
#there is something DIFFERENT; you aren't doing a "lord it over" 
#act or I'd FEEL it. You are capable of analysis; you did it to 
#my 1st gen satanist post and you did it WELL. 

this sight on your part is very reflective to me of your ability
to separate yourself from what you say.  thank you for your
feedback.  we appear to have a range of similarity.


#I think you and the COS people I'm reading here just "ain't clicking" 
#when it comes to the way you are using words to mean things. 

what is it about people that causes them to hook onto words and only
take their surface rather than to suspend disbelief, see past the
verbiage, and reach a communion of mind?  is this also part of the
'Xtiod mentality'?  I see it in "(Co)Satanist" culture too.


#Keep in mind context and timing.  COS members WILL BE defensive (and 
#they are defending me now, as you notice - they have reasons as I said) 
#and they WILL BE suspicious and they have EVERY reason to be.... 

I find such antics to be exemplary of severe psychosocial problems,
though I realize it is a natural response to feeling alienated and
persecuted.  my entry into the CoSatanist field was a dedicated
refrainment from shielding who I am.  it appears to have hit a
number of old-Xtoid nerves.  I got to see these right up front.


#I'm not afraid to be SPIED on. No one knows who you are, but
#down the line I had heard you were a spy....

the Crowleyan line about not being concerned if you are a spy applies
to me.  from where does this paranoia originate?  what is the deal
about 'spies' and 'secrecy' except as an outworn (especially in cyber-
space!) echo of (supposed) persecution which is no longer present?
don't CoSatanists share in their SELF-protection devices such that
they can deal with any individual regardless of spy or disruptor?
aren't these tempered with some measure of discernment so that one
who is *analytic* (both Crowley and LaVey emphasize DOUBT) will be
separated out from the 'trouble-making idiot'?  without such a
discernment the gems will be turned from CoSatanism and all that
will be left will be cultists, totally the opposite of what you
say you are after.
 

#...I never asked the COSsers questions LIKE the ones you or Diane 
#asked - like the ones a spy WOULD ask, probably because I already 
#knew the answers to it long ago! 

again, there are two sides to this interaction.  my question is:
what does this type of paranoid response have to say about the CoS?


#...The COS and its members realized that they REALLY DO have enemies
#out there, enemies that would put them in jail and accuse them of crimes or
#SET THEM UP to be accused. Blanche wrote it in TBF. It's NO joke....

cyberspace forums do not usually allow this unless the speaker is living
in the same community and it is a conservative environ.  in this case,
there ought be some sort of gate-keeping (statement of privacy, etc.),
rather than just reacting with derision and paranoia whenever someone
comes to challenge the Sacred Cow.  otherwise true criticism and query
is SQUELCHED and the group reverts to a HERD.

I agree there are real enemies, but I think there are more reasonable
avenues of protection than secrecy about the organization.  I suspect
that much of it covers up blatant ignorance.  if nobody can ask the
questions which *Mr. LaVey says are the most important TO ask*(!),
(like "WHO GAINS?"!), then the deterioration of the org is complete.


#...I have the MENTALITY of the NKVD type ....

I don't know what "NKVD" means.


#people DO trust me and have known me for years and CAN trust me. YOU
#(personal) might be able to, it would depend on the "deal." I.e., I would not
#rob your money - you can trust that. I would not mis-state what you say - no
#matter, everyone can SEE what you say. But that doesn't stop some from
#mis-stating me or adding in their own shit and then arguing with it (as I know
#so so well) or of LYING OUTRIGHT about what a dear friend said to try to sow
#dissention between us (not realizing that I have a COPY of it).

I tend to minimize vulnerable resources through dispensing with my need
for them, diffusing their centrality of location, or withdrawing from
direct dominion over them.  this makes me less of a target.  Lao Tzu
said it best: "the accumulation of goods draws/produces thieves".

for this reason I am a public monk, do not maintain secrecy, am not
engaging the accumulation of worldly goods, am minimizing material
possessions which idiots seek to acquire, etc.


#If you really want to join the COS, or be "part of" it - hell - send for
#another form!....

I have decided that I will wait for an honorary membership based on my
efforts in networking for the Satanist culture, CoSatanist in particular.
I am not opposed to loosely-based congregatives, even while I may argue
strongly against their being some sort of Fundament of Satanism.  your
text appears to coincide with my own here in many ways, and I see many'
overlaps in what we are saying, though often in different language.  the
CoSatanists who think I am targeting them with questions or challenging
their rational understanding don't yet understand my approach, and I am
content to let them figure it out over time.

I will be having greater and greater connection to Satanists of all
sorts over time, and through my church (Church of Euthanasia), of
which I am its Satanic Outreach Director.  my intent is to make
known the org and how I have understood its Satanic character.  I
will be sending you something in mail once I have received a pkg
from you or once again get your POB address.


#UNDERSTAND they have GOOD reasons to be mistrusting. They've been burned. Me?
#I can't be burned: I'M FIRE. 

we have a similar start-point then.  I feel I *have* been burned, but I have
healed my wounds in ways which made me stronger, more antagonistic and more
well-defended against those who do assault.  when the fire-victim starts
throwing water on the PICTURES of fire or at people who MENTION fire, then
I start to see parallels with numerous mind-controlling mobs.


#However.... some folks lately been playing REALLY dirty tricks that 
#involve "earth" if you get the meaning here. I have access
#to NCIC and Jeff AFIO. No, neither has any kind of occult connotation or
#connection.

no, I don't get your meaning here and I don't know what NCIC or AFIO
means, nor do I know which Jeff you are referring to here.  


#...A person who refuses to commit to anything, has
#committed himself to uncommittment. One does not have to have a theory of
#anything, or commit to one. 

commitment arises best from within as an expression of directedness.
lack of adherence to any value-set only exemplifies decay.


#Again, he is committed to uncommittment as he
#dances amidst the Samsaric phenomenal forms as he chances to pass by in his
#trip forward due to the ONE COMMITTMENT everything HAS TO make: in commiting
#to self birth, one commits to self death. Nothing else need be committed to
#since this is Being. I erred. "Everything" does not have to commit to this:
#the Void (apeiron) is exempt. Who will understand this? I do: I said it. [END]

"from the first not a thing is" -- hui-neng

as the Arjuna of Nagas has said, Samsara and Nirvana are not two.
they are one in emptiness.  birth and death are gates of ephemeral
relativity, dependent upon formal and limited constructs.  :>  

nocTifer
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com