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To: sglasby@onyx.idbsu.edu (Samuel C. Glasby)
From: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
Subject: Re: CAW, Neopaganism and Satanism
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 18:24:21 -0700 (PDT)

Kali Yuga 49940930

Dear Sibling Arcanus, 

You eloquently write:

|	There is much truth in what you say, however I feel that you are
|missing a central point behind the definitions (ie, "Pagan != Satanist")
|which folk such the the CAW document authors make.

Perhaps.  Perhaps I'm just trying to take various tacks along displaying
precisely what Neopagans are saying Satanists *are*.  You see, that is 
really my goal here: a study of Satanism from the eyes of Neopagans,
Christians and others, and Satanists themselves.  Right now I'm only in
the first (and most difficult) stage.

 
|	And that is, many Pagans do not see themselves as Satanists.

Of course.  Most don't.


|Not Satanists in the Christian UL definition, not Satanists in the 
|sense of a memeber of Anton LaVey's group, not Satanists in your definition
|of "The Great Martyrdom Cult".

Of course.  We know this much.  The question becomes what are Neopagans
saying that they are not that they are not Satanists?


|How can I see it as a rebellion/martyrdom from Christianity, when I know
|of Christianity, and what it means to me?  

You didn't get it.  It isn't a rebellion/martyrdom *from Christianity*.
'Christianity' is just one more layer of the establishment that *used to*
be the GMC!  Remember: "Christians to the lions!"?


|Christianity and Paganism
|both have meaning to me...and I do not see one as a rebellion or
|converse of the other.

You're the one bringing in Christianity.  I was talking about Satanism,
which many Satanists do not identify as strictly Christian, yet which
most Neopagans seem to.  Compare this with how most Christians identify
Neopagans as Satanists.

What Christians *mean* when they say Neopagans = Satanists is logically
sound.  What Neopagans *mean* when they say Satanists = Christians is
logically sound.  The point is that in each case one group is defining
someone *else*.  You don't like me defining Neopagans.  That makes a
hell of a lot of sense.  Neopagans are actively attempting to define
Satanism in order to save their fearful asses from the establishment
which is out to oppress the GMC.

Since the Witches have opted to save Nature as they are co-opted, they
will be saved the scourge as they bring the value of Nature back into
the cultural consciousness.  Satan is popularly associated with Nature
also, but in a different way - a way which it is presently too difficult
for conventional Neopagans to accept.


|	So, while I admire your philosophy...I find it well-reasoned,
|emotionally compelling, and with a most cogent basis in the soul;

Wow!  I'm surprised at this. :>

 
|	I must disagree with your saying "Anyone who says Paganism
|is not Satanism is wrong".

Excuse me?  I have never said this.  I challenge you to find where I said
this and quote it to me directly.  I cannot imagine that I would be so
foolhardy, so silly as to make such a statement and I would be happy
to issue a public retraction if I have done so in these words.

The only time I can remember even coming close was when I mixed up ONE
word in a sentence 'All Wiccans are Satanists...' when I meant 'AREN'T'.
 

|	Both poles of a duality are wrong, viewed in a scheme which 
|lies outside of the duality.  In this sense, those who say (perhaps
|subscribing to the Satanism/UL definition) "Paganism/Witchcraft = Satanism, 
|ie inverted crosses and human sacrifice" are wrong, 

The concept of absolute 'right' and 'wrong' has been promoted within
the Christian establishment in order to enslave us and I urge you to give
it up.  I think that from a Fundamentalist Christian viewpoint it is
perfectly true to say "Paganism/Witchcraft = Satanism" because of what
the person means by 'Satanism' (that which is not Yahweh-worship).


|and you also
|are wrong in saying "Paganism = Satanism, based on my definition and
|conception of Satanism".

Based on yours, based on the one I presented in the essay on the Great 
Martyrdom Cult, and based on the literal meaning of the terms, since
Paganism is the religion of the people of the fields and Satanism is the
activity of being an adversary, I would whole-heartedly agree.  Surely 
the field-people are not at present (and rarely are) revolutionaries.

 
|	For one thing, both presume that Paganism is One Thing.  The
|former presumes that Satanism is One Thing as well.  I realize, as I am 
|sure you do (as I _know_ you do from reading your writings), that
|Paganism, Satanism, Christianity, are not Single Things, but continiums,
|defined both by society (as it uses the terms) as well as by 
|individuals and groups which practice these things.

All this I think is very well-worded and I like it very much.

 
|	Hence, nothing definitive can be said, because that would presume
|that all these things are _defined_, rather than existing as they do.

Nothing definitive can be said, agreed.  This does not stop me from making
assertions, however!  And these assertions can be taken and reacted to in
order to give me more information about how Neopagans see 'Satanism'.
 

----------------------------------
 
|	Now, on the other hand, I can agree with a statement like:
|
|"The conceptions and actualities of Christianity, Satanism, and Paganism
|vary, and overlap.  The relationship is complex.  Each of these, if defined
|by someone not of that tradition, tends very much to be mis-defined,
|in that the definition used by a non-member does not match the people
|who are supposedly defined/labeled as members."

There you go!  Now tell me why the CAW doesn't have statements about what 
Satanism is *by Satanists themselves* within their 'Reference Manual for the
Investigator'??  They are *defining Satanism for the Satanists* as well as 
letting idiot cult-entrepreneurs and fairly ignorant academics do it for 
them, all the while fairly equating it with ritual abuse.  This has been my 
main critique, the one which has occupied most of my time online with this 
issue.
 

|	And that would surely be more accurate, but then again
|I do not expect prissy exactitude in language all the time.  And
|I realize that much of what you seek in such posts is related to
|a desire for dynamic change, and thought...since much stasis in thought
|is connected with the stasis of language and meanings of words.

I don't expect minds to change, but I do wish to see this issue debated.
It is as if the Christians, being persecuted by Roman Inquisition, were 
to say:

		"Wait!  We're not the Witches who eat your children!
		 The Witches are over here, and they are the ones who
		 eat children and fornicate with animals!  Yes!!"

It is amazing that the CAW cannot see this.  Yet what motive do they
have to do so?  Neopagans are not up in arms about the slander coming
out the the Church of All Worlds, since it *isn't slander about Neopagans*.


|	However, I would ask you to consider this:
|
|	Pagans and Witches, in defining themselves as they do 
|(in the alt.pagan FAQ, in the CAW document, etc), have a reason and 
|purpose behind any particular definition.

Of course they do.  You are a very intelligent person.  I can see this.
We don't disagree on these things.  The Neopagans and Witches define
themselves quite well (overly much perhaps!).  I love how they do it,
though I fear for definition slightly.


|	In particular, these purposes include 
|Defining oneself for one's own purposes, for self and among a group...

Ah but if they *truly* have this value then why are they not abiding by
it when it comes to Satanists?!!!!!


|	and
|Pointing out that we are not that which is defined by the UL of Satanism...
|(And, yes I am certainly aware that various traditions of Satanism are 
|not neccesarily that either)

In order to 'point this out' you have to get the version 'the UL of
Satanism', yet to date I have never heard a Neopagan quote this.  Why?
Because *they don't know what it is or they don't want to hear it*.  
All they know is that the fucking Christians are using a UL of 
Christianity to define Satanism and they wish to get as far away from 
the Christian TEETH as possible and so DO NOT DISPUTE the UL of 
Christianity defining Satanism, even going as far as SUPPORTING IT 
WITH PROPAGANDA.  Why?  Cowards, I say.
 
Join me in calling for the inclusion of statements from the Church of
Satan and the Temple of Set and any other organization which cares to
contribute toward their publication, else the discontinuation of the
'manual'!


|	So what purpose is served by tossing a monkey wrench into
|our efforts?  

Let me post this, sir.  I think that you bring up all the very important
questions here and I agree with you so very much that I wish this exchange
had not been private.

What purpose is served by 'tossing a monkey wrench in'?  My purpose is
to bring to light precisely what Neopagans are saying that the UL of
Satanism *is*, that they are not.  So far they appear to mostly be
refleting the UL which Christianity has given it, CONTRARY TO THEIR
OWN STANDARDS (i.e. their values are being co-opted by the establishment).

This is why I issue warnings about the dissolution of the purity of
Neopaganism, of its innocence.  Stand and fight I say.  Separate yourselves

from the Satanists by all means, but realize that you are BOTH FIGHTING THE
SAME CAUSE AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN OPPRESSORS.  Do not let them divide and
conquer like they have done so very many times in the past.


|I appreciate the intent of your writings and the thought
|behind them, and many other Pagans do as well I am sure.  

I'd be surprised.  I figure most are ignoring me now, even though I'm
attempting a sort of midwivery.


|However,
|some who read here (and in cross-posts on such threads) do not.

This much I knew.  I shall be hated and spurned, all for asking
questions, for challenging dogmas, for playing the Devil's Advocate,
for I am a Satanist and this is my duty to my people.


|> Yddrak Arcanus, Magus of Bonisagus of Covenent Monte'iver |
|> Sam Glasby (Warlock of L13, Wizard and Amiganaut)         |
|> sglasby@[onyx/tohobit/gozer].idbsu.edu                    |

I really love your sig. :> Please allow me to post this letter to Usenet.

tyagi the evil wiccan
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
TOKUS - The Order of K@os Under Satan