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To: tyagi mordred nagasiva 
From: Joy Williams 
Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: are Wiccans, Satanists?
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 20:02:34 -0700 (PDT)

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, tyagi mordred nagasiva wrote:
> 
> Oh I don't know.  I was making an analogy.  Am Heritage '3. protestant ...
> One who makes a declaration or avowal.'  I get the impression that it is a
> reaction to the Gardnerian authorized line in some ways.  My reference was
> to practice and belief, the first of which Gardnerians and Roman Catholics 
> seem set upon, the latter seemingly more prevalent in some Protestant and 
> CAW circles (if the people whom I've met are any indication).  I don't
> claim to be an expert on CAW and I welcome your correction.

Well, we have encyclicals, but one of the things that *I* cherish as a 
member of the CAW is that I don't have to swear to anything if I don't 
want to, and I can still be a member.  I can be a member, but then again, I 
might not become a Scion.  
To become clergy or Scion there is a level of commitment, because the 
Church naturally wants to know that you are willing to show some sign of 
dedication, before you go out representing them.

Well, my experience with  Protestantism shows me that CAW is SO removed 
from any resemblance (I grew up a generic Protestant, 
Baptist/Presbyterian/Methodist) that it has got to be one of the 
strangest anaologies I have ever seen.  The lack of vitality and ritual, 
ecstasy in Protestantis, etc, which is often very prevalent in 
Catholocism, is definitely nothing like the CAW.  We are pretty intense 
in ritual, highly ecstatic...well unless you were at one of our rituals 
at CAW central, you would have no way to really know.

> > > |And while I followed your rantings > |with Otter on the newsgroup,
I have to disagree with both of you on the > |issue.  I think that
Satanists who don't really follow the Xtian Satan > |aren't really
Satanists... 

> > Ok, so you know who is and who isn't a Satanist.  In that
case why don't the Christians know who is and who isn't a Satanist?  

Tyagi, you know as well as I do that Xtians don't know much about 
anything.  It is their erroneous preconceptions and beliefs that are the 
dangerous things

> Why are you better qualified to make that determination? 

 maybe cuz I was an Xtian and I saw the stupidity of my ways....I 
done saw the light, and became a "born again Pagan."  Who better 
qualified than a heretic, Tyagi?

  They claim that all other religions are the devices of the Evil One (of
course). 

What do you mean "of course?"  Don't tell me that you subscribe to their 
point of view on this, do you Tyagi?  Come, on, tyagi, thou speakest with 
a forked tongue....but then again maybe that is your intent.

Well, true, they call Native Tradition Evil also.  But just understand
something, once and for all, Tyagi.  Whether or not your brand of what you
call "satanism" is really Hindu/Neo-Pagan/Kaliism, many Neo-Pagans just do
not want to be brushed in the same stroke as what the Xtians regard as
Satanism.  That's WHY we don't call ourselves Satanists.  Besides the fact
that most of us honestly have no desire to give him any credence or
reality....no matter what your interpretation of Satan is, Tyagi, whether
you feel that it is Nature, or Gaia, or whatever....the cat you sleep
with, most of us don't want to be killed by a rabid fundie because he
misinterprets what we are about because a few people who may agree
fundamentally with Neo-Paganism, but insist on calling themselves
"Satanists" are only feeding him the hate frenzy that he wants to undulge
in, and further the persecution.  If you want to really change things
Tyagi, then why don't you just call yourself a Neo-Pagan who recognizes
Lucifer/Prometheus as well?  I do.  But I refuse to feed the fundies fire
by indulging in calling myself a "satanist" because 1) I am not, and do
not regard him as a God, but rather a mind aspect of Yahweh, and actually
as his most prevalent one, and I want absolutely nothing to DO with Yahweh
2) I'd rather not be involved with continuing the persecution of many of
my sisters and brothers who are witches/Neo-Pagans, and are losing jobs,
homes and children because the stupid fundies think that just because you
may wear a pentacle that you are a "Satanist." 

> 
> 
> |why call themselves that if they aren't, especially the self proclaimed 
> |aetheists, who just use the word Satanist to scare  or rebel.
> 
> You are the one who says they aren't.  I wonder why you think you have the
> ability to define it better than they.  Most atheistic Satanists are likely
> the most dedicated.

Tyagi, Aetheist means you don't believe in any higher, Divine being.
As opposed to Agnostic, which means you don't know.
How can you be dedicated to a "religion" if you don't believe in it?  Is 
it just a technique thing?

  Some Witches just use the word to rebel also.  Using
> a heretical religion to that of our parents can be a very powerful thing.
> 
Certainly some witches do, those who are trying to get "power-over" and 
shock other people are just childish idiots seeking self-aggrandizing 
attention, usually because they haven't really understood that they are 
already Divine.  There are insecure hypocrits everywhere.  (My parents 
are Pagan, so I'm not following anything heretical to them, just to society).

> 'Accept', not 'subscribe'.  One can accept that another has a particular
> view without subscribing to it.  That was my point.
Sorry missed that

>  
> |"silly Wicken"  Is that a mistype?
> 
> Intentional.

Tyagi, hate to say it, but you are the silliest Wicken I've met, if not 
the only one.  

>  
> |Tyagi, why are you trying to rattle people's chains?
> 
> I'm trying to infuse some critical thought.  It is more to me than a game,
> Joy, and there are a lot of people who accept their precious principles
> and dogmas without seriously challenging them.  It's neat to be part of a
> fad which masquerades as ecological in a country that is fast depleting
> the world's resources.  Eventually the glimmer wears thin for me I guess.

1.  I hardly consider a movement which has lasted for 30 years + as a "fad."
2.  I am very much an environmentalist,  I find myself in a society which 
does not allow me to function in a comfortable way without useing some 
resources, but that does NOT mean that I cannot reduce as much as 
possible and make an attempt to educate.
3. What do you think this "masquerade" is trying to cover up?
4. YOU spend FAR too much time on the net, dear Tyagi...when was the last 
time you walked in Gaia's greenness?  Everyday, I am seeing stupendously 
LONG posts from you on the net.  Either you type 300 words per minute, or 
you never get out in the world.  Take a break, Tyagi....and give our 
newsgroup a break as well...you are monopolizing the group and making 
people upset.
> 
> tyagi
> 
Meant totally in friendliness......
Never thirst!
Joy WIlliams
Church of All Worlds