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Wiccan Authority -- Societal and Reproductive

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.wicca,alt.witchcraft,alt.religion.wicca,talk.religion.misc
From: lorax666 
Subject: Wiccan Authority -- Societal and Reproductive
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:18:25 GMT

50031229 vii om Mary Meat, my kin!

nocTifer concludes regarding Wiccan conferment of authority:
#> and then the only real issue at that point is determining when an
#> initiation has been conducted by the gods and which were 'merely
#> ceremonial with no conferring or authoritative qualities'.
#>
#> conservative Neopagans conclude that there is no overarching
#> clergy-hierarchicalization *possible*, given these conditions,
#> and we therefore regard all clergy or poseur-clergy as
#> effectively of the same overall authority.

that doesn't mean I won't try to differentiate them, however. :>

poseur-clergy should be a separate category and held in contempt.
those who presume to intrude upon serious traditions of long and
respectable integrity by 'faking their way in' or who represent
that for which they have not been properly prepared constitute a
blight on the Neopagan community and its health. those who clearly
identify the framework and character of their connection with the
subcultures in question ought be treated the respect all deserve,
even if that means disagreeing with them about their status.

Figinnn:
# Interesting points.

thanks. good to see you around. :>

# Further instances of how our beliefs create our reality 

but is this wishful thinking?

# (which may differ from the true Reality.)  

kinda like what I asked above. 'create our reality' 
is a weak category when our reality is not Reality,
or at least suitably connected to its foundation.
castles in the clouds tend to be figmentary.

# At the end of the day, we have no tangible proof
# that any so-called clergy (or religious path) is 
# authoritative or "correct."

we *do* have proof for some, though I think I understand 
why you conclude this. they may be correct or authoritative 
within *certain* domains. within the domain of their 
lineages or covens or temples, for example. this is the
focal purpose of the degree differentials I observed 
(the conferment of greater ability to expand the cult).  

a Neopagan who constructed a temple surely has a greater 
authority within that temple. same is true within
any particular group, group system, or initiatory lineage. 

that's the strength of the opposing argument in this thread:
where authority = 'lineage-authority' (i.e. Wiccans are only
those who have become part of the lines of descent from the
original possessors of the 'current', if you like), there is
really no avoiding this very real societal basis to Wiccan 
identity, especially as it proceeds through time, prior 
to its catholicization/popularization by authors. 

once this occurred then we must decide whether those who 
started up parallel based on written expressions are of the 
same calibre, the same character or standard of 'Wiccan'.
reasonable people will differ as to their assessment.

arguably they are NOT, but whether this makes them 'not 
a Wiccan' or even 'nonauthoritative clergy' due to not 
following the proper forms, or due to the absence of some
cosmic underpinning (as compared to a societal foundation),
this says nothing of their *effective and demonstrable*
authority when issues become contentious (maybe I'll 
make TN's point for hir :>).

# If we believe some member of the clergy has power that 
# we don't have, they indeed have that power over us, 
# regardless of whether that power is founded in Truth.

it is a lovely argument and I agree it is persuasive to
a point. but I only spoke of "conservative Neopagans"
because if one follows the 'your authority is purely 
imaginary' line too far, one'll run smack dab into that 
societal barrier, with its pass-codes and secrets
and franchisement authorizations, consented by proxy.

this is a power over us we can NEVER assault, because
it rests on trust, loyalty to the clan, the line, the
coven, initiator, the Goddess, to our spirit and blood.

the benefit of Wiccan clergy in its most conservative
sense is its connection to specific information (that
which associates with Gardner and his immediates). 

this can be separated identifiably from those which 
do not have a means to move beyond that barrier, and
for this reason those who maintain dogmatic claims
may emphasize this descent as all such religions do
who place value and importance on that 'Golden Chain',
often back to the fiction-riddled religious founder,
some dear associate or student thereof. one finds this
in the Sufis with their chain back to Muhammad and,
inevitably Abraham and even Adam; with the Buddhists
initiated back to the Muni of the Sakta clan, that
Awakened Siddhartha Gautama, or his disciple Ananda
or some similar worthy; and of course with Christians 
the clergy trace back to the Apostles (e.g. Peter), 
or to Christ God Almighty.

most of us may not have some manner of ascertaining 
the true identity of particular sect members within
any one religion, but to those who do, identifying
that discernment as important or necessary sometimes
makes sure it is maintained with precision.

opposing it is in part what some do who take their
initiations and find some way to spread enough of
the secret information around that identity becomes
somewhat more difficult for initiates (because there
are occasionally people interested in charades and
wanings in membership sometimes require it). 

for this reason the character of the claim need only 
be made for the conditions of proof be ascertained.
this is particularly true with cults that have more
than a few decades growth behind them, set themselves 
up with passwords, and oaths of secrecy, etc.

if they develop, they may generate multiple-threads of
initiated lineages, sometimes separated by fractions
of liturgy or tenets, being sisters or offshoots in a
family (Protestant/Catholic; Cabotian/Gardnerian; etc.),
often with common liturgical and doctrinal characters,
and with written records to document actual initiations.
 
the social authority associated with these in a real,
not strictly imaginary, dimension should not be over-
looked, and those who maintain them may be forgiven if 
they may occasionally become zealous in restraint of
proffered respect. the vocabulary of the practitioner
is not the same as that of the sociologist of religion,
nor should we expect one to conform to the other's usage.

   blessed beast!
  unless
   6letters6
   6letters6
   6letters6
    lorax666

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