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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.wicca,alt.witchcraft,alt.religion.wicca,talk.religion.misc From: lorax666Subject: Wiccan Authority -- Societal and Reproductive Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 11:18:25 GMT 50031229 vii om Mary Meat, my kin! nocTifer concludes regarding Wiccan conferment of authority: #> and then the only real issue at that point is determining when an #> initiation has been conducted by the gods and which were 'merely #> ceremonial with no conferring or authoritative qualities'. #> #> conservative Neopagans conclude that there is no overarching #> clergy-hierarchicalization *possible*, given these conditions, #> and we therefore regard all clergy or poseur-clergy as #> effectively of the same overall authority. that doesn't mean I won't try to differentiate them, however. :> poseur-clergy should be a separate category and held in contempt. those who presume to intrude upon serious traditions of long and respectable integrity by 'faking their way in' or who represent that for which they have not been properly prepared constitute a blight on the Neopagan community and its health. those who clearly identify the framework and character of their connection with the subcultures in question ought be treated the respect all deserve, even if that means disagreeing with them about their status. Figinnn: # Interesting points. thanks. good to see you around. :> # Further instances of how our beliefs create our reality but is this wishful thinking? # (which may differ from the true Reality.) kinda like what I asked above. 'create our reality' is a weak category when our reality is not Reality, or at least suitably connected to its foundation. castles in the clouds tend to be figmentary. # At the end of the day, we have no tangible proof # that any so-called clergy (or religious path) is # authoritative or "correct." we *do* have proof for some, though I think I understand why you conclude this. they may be correct or authoritative within *certain* domains. within the domain of their lineages or covens or temples, for example. this is the focal purpose of the degree differentials I observed (the conferment of greater ability to expand the cult). a Neopagan who constructed a temple surely has a greater authority within that temple. same is true within any particular group, group system, or initiatory lineage. that's the strength of the opposing argument in this thread: where authority = 'lineage-authority' (i.e. Wiccans are only those who have become part of the lines of descent from the original possessors of the 'current', if you like), there is really no avoiding this very real societal basis to Wiccan identity, especially as it proceeds through time, prior to its catholicization/popularization by authors. once this occurred then we must decide whether those who started up parallel based on written expressions are of the same calibre, the same character or standard of 'Wiccan'. reasonable people will differ as to their assessment. arguably they are NOT, but whether this makes them 'not a Wiccan' or even 'nonauthoritative clergy' due to not following the proper forms, or due to the absence of some cosmic underpinning (as compared to a societal foundation), this says nothing of their *effective and demonstrable* authority when issues become contentious (maybe I'll make TN's point for hir :>). # If we believe some member of the clergy has power that # we don't have, they indeed have that power over us, # regardless of whether that power is founded in Truth. it is a lovely argument and I agree it is persuasive to a point. but I only spoke of "conservative Neopagans" because if one follows the 'your authority is purely imaginary' line too far, one'll run smack dab into that societal barrier, with its pass-codes and secrets and franchisement authorizations, consented by proxy. this is a power over us we can NEVER assault, because it rests on trust, loyalty to the clan, the line, the coven, initiator, the Goddess, to our spirit and blood. the benefit of Wiccan clergy in its most conservative sense is its connection to specific information (that which associates with Gardner and his immediates). this can be separated identifiably from those which do not have a means to move beyond that barrier, and for this reason those who maintain dogmatic claims may emphasize this descent as all such religions do who place value and importance on that 'Golden Chain', often back to the fiction-riddled religious founder, some dear associate or student thereof. one finds this in the Sufis with their chain back to Muhammad and, inevitably Abraham and even Adam; with the Buddhists initiated back to the Muni of the Sakta clan, that Awakened Siddhartha Gautama, or his disciple Ananda or some similar worthy; and of course with Christians the clergy trace back to the Apostles (e.g. Peter), or to Christ God Almighty. most of us may not have some manner of ascertaining the true identity of particular sect members within any one religion, but to those who do, identifying that discernment as important or necessary sometimes makes sure it is maintained with precision. opposing it is in part what some do who take their initiations and find some way to spread enough of the secret information around that identity becomes somewhat more difficult for initiates (because there are occasionally people interested in charades and wanings in membership sometimes require it). for this reason the character of the claim need only be made for the conditions of proof be ascertained. this is particularly true with cults that have more than a few decades growth behind them, set themselves up with passwords, and oaths of secrecy, etc. if they develop, they may generate multiple-threads of initiated lineages, sometimes separated by fractions of liturgy or tenets, being sisters or offshoots in a family (Protestant/Catholic; Cabotian/Gardnerian; etc.), often with common liturgical and doctrinal characters, and with written records to document actual initiations. the social authority associated with these in a real, not strictly imaginary, dimension should not be over- looked, and those who maintain them may be forgiven if they may occasionally become zealous in restraint of proffered respect. the vocabulary of the practitioner is not the same as that of the sociologist of religion, nor should we expect one to conform to the other's usage. blessed beast! unless 6letters6 6letters6 6letters6 lorax666
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