THE |
|
a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects. |
To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.wicca,alt.witchcraft,alt.traditional.witchcraft,alt.magick,alt.occult.methods From: lorax666Subject: Wiccan Athames-Black-Dull (/Bolines-White-Sharp) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:09:45 GMT 50031229 vii om Mary Meat!! sri catyananda : # As far as i know, the debate is limited to folks practicing # formal or informal forms of Wicca. in the sense you mean it you are of course correct. I suppose ceremonial magicians might not quibble about it due to their lax standards, or Sikhs, etc. if you're just talking about people what call their ritual blades 'athames' then we're basically into Wiccan disputes, and I'll focus on that here. my point was that the only *legitimate* (informal Wiccan!) debate is between people using the same tools. the reason that I say this is that as far as I am concerned, no expression of authority from a Neopagan carries any weight that extends outside some official rite put on for somebody's coven. the parallel can be seen when looking at Thelemic 'Gnostic Masses' and delineations about what "must" be done at them by orders like the (c)OTO (the authority only comes into play when the rite is 'under the auspices of' them, and those who put on whacky nonstandard Gnostic Masses gno this). i.e. beyond the bounds of 'doing initiations' or whatever other kinds of official rituals that are supposed to be traditionally performed, there is no call for interfering in the personal practice of anyone else, whether one is a Wiccan or some other kind of Neopagan or witch. these fundamentalist notions I would oppose as post-Christian and a waste of all our time. not only this, they fly in the face of contentions I've heard from the best Wiccan/Neopagan Elders that I've ever known (who were very conservative about where their religion intruded on individuals). *in*formal disputes were misplaced and contrary to the Rede when it wasn't an issue of pragmatism. # Most others who use a dagger # in ritual work, employ an "as-found" or "as-purchased" or # "as-made" dagger, which would most likely be sharp -- unless, as # below, they selected a tool that, as-made was dull-edged. agreed. lorax666: #> beyond this, cult requirements for purpose of instruction and #> initiation are conducive to conformist temperance [...] #> some orders or covens are stricter than others. # And the "debate" is thus posed between different groups who # follow different leaders. not always. there really are post-Christian Neopagans who want to circumscribe the practices of others with their limited ideas of 'what makes a Wiccan' or 'what one must do to be a Witch'. the issue is more one of authority and how it develops and may be defused. most of the Neopagans that I've ever found any value in studying with were primarily anarchic when it came to informal practices, for example, and realized that for purely practical reasons some kinds of ceremonial and symbolic basic agreements were helpful. they didn't usually presume these basic agreements sacrosanct or more valuable than expedient. that discernment was, to the best of them, 'strictly up to the gods to decide' (i.e. none of their (or anyone else's) business other than those who sought mutual usage). so to the real tools issue. someone else: #>#> I know that Gardnerism demands a dull one, #> #> demands? #> I'm sure I've known Gardnerians with sharp-edged blades. note: I may have been remembering bolines, which are, by the sources I've just consulted, for practical cutting, whereas the athame is for directing energies and making some kind of sacred space in the astral or wherever. that said, 'demands' doesn't inform us as to context of usage. presumably it means 'for rites strictly Gardnerian' and I'm not sure that thisis true (but it wouldn't surprise me). # I have heard that a dull athame is a requirement in Gardnerian # Wicca, but i have seen some fairly sharp "dull" ones. Not # razor-blade sharp, but far more than butter-knife sharp. Also, i # have seen some of the modern "fantasy knives" used as athames. that's part of the problem. the issues involved are multiplex. a) what we've each seen were not official Gardnerian rites. but there are user-manuals and Outer Court instructions. b) to my knowledge, standards only pertain to the formal rites, not to anything else. this being your initial point, I completely agree, and this is to a great extent the focus of conversation here. c) there are multiple *lines* of Gardnerians. I've encountered mostly Kentucky-line and California- line Gardnerians and a few Alexandrians. I'm sure that some standards vary, though I'm not sure which of these do and whether their particulars may include any kind of focus on what number of blade-edges or their relative sharpness are to be used for 'official rites'. I recall some bit of instruction about the value of the double-edged blade due to whatever was associated with it 'cutting both ways'. but for the hell of it, here are some 'Wiccan' expressions about athames, and we can figure out if they're Gardnerians (even some Gardnerians dispute over 'proper initiatory status', and multiple-line initiations are sometimes suggested and taken just to be sure!): Steward Farrar (What Witches Do): nonspecific as to #-edges, black-athame-dull/white-unnamed?-sharp Scott Cunningham (The Truth.../Wicca, A guide): single- or double-edged black-athame-dull/white-boline-sharp note: I haven't taken the time to determine if these are Gardnerians. :> however, they both *did* mention that one knife should be black-handled (the athame) and that one should be white (the boline). I'm pretty sure they both had inscriptions too. otherwise their text conforms in many ways to what I remembered being instructed, so they may be some Gardnerian or an offshoot. so it seems your memory (as usual) was better than mine. that's why I collect books. if I was really interested in it I'd get my notes from the class out of the hole. :> to a certain extent we're talking about unique requirements, as an extension of an apparently more general claim disputed. baird@newstaff.com (Baird Stafford): #># Dull athame: 1) the symbolism is enough to work Magically; 2) dull #># athames stand little chance of cutting other coveners by accident in #># Circle. Remember that Gardnerian Wicca prefers covens to solitary #># practice. often reliable on matters Neopagan, Baird is. whether lineage Wicca is what *constitutes* Wicca is the original focus of the thread, and one which will be discussed elsewhere as this aside settles. :> blessed beast! lorax666
The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist: tyaginator@arcane-archive.org. |
Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site. |
The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories, each dealing with a different branch of religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge. Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit: |
|
interdisciplinary:
geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc. |
SEARCH THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):
OTHER ESOTERIC AND OCCULT SITES OF INTEREST
Southern
Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo,
including slave narratives & interviews
|