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Wiccan Athames-Black-Dull

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.wicca,alt.witchcraft,alt.traditional.witchcraft,alt.magick,alt.occult.methods
From: lorax666 
Subject: Wiccan Athames-Black-Dull (/Bolines-White-Sharp)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 09:09:45 GMT

50031229 vii om Mary Meat!!

sri catyananda :
# As far as i know, the debate is limited to folks practicing
# formal or informal forms of Wicca. 

in the sense you mean it you are of course correct. I suppose 
ceremonial magicians might not quibble about it due to their 
lax standards, or Sikhs, etc.  if you're just talking about
people what call their ritual blades 'athames' then we're
basically into Wiccan disputes, and I'll focus on that here.  

my point was that the only *legitimate* (informal Wiccan!) 
debate is between people using the same tools. the reason 
that I say this is that as far as I am concerned, no 
expression of authority from a Neopagan carries any weight 
that extends outside some official rite put on for somebody's 
coven. the parallel can be seen when looking at Thelemic 
'Gnostic Masses' and delineations about what "must" be done 
at them by orders like the (c)OTO (the authority only comes 
into play when the rite is 'under the auspices of' them, and 
those who put on whacky nonstandard Gnostic Masses gno this).

i.e. beyond the bounds of 'doing initiations' or whatever other
kinds of official rituals that are supposed to be traditionally
performed, there is no call for interfering in the personal
practice of anyone else, whether one is a Wiccan or some other
kind of Neopagan or witch. these fundamentalist notions I would
oppose as post-Christian and a waste of all our time. not only
this, they fly in the face of contentions I've heard from the 
best Wiccan/Neopagan Elders that I've ever known (who were very
conservative about where their religion intruded on individuals).
*in*formal disputes were misplaced and contrary to the Rede
when it wasn't an issue of pragmatism.
 
# Most others who use a dagger
# in ritual work, employ an "as-found" or "as-purchased" or
# "as-made" dagger, which would most likely be sharp -- unless, as
# below, they selected a tool that, as-made was dull-edged. 

agreed.

lorax666:
#> beyond this, cult requirements for purpose of instruction and
#> initiation are conducive to conformist temperance [...]
#> some orders or covens are stricter than others.

# And the "debate" is thus posed between different groups who
# follow different leaders. 

not always. there really are post-Christian Neopagans who want
to circumscribe the practices of others with their limited ideas
of 'what makes a Wiccan' or 'what one must do to be a Witch'.

the issue is more one of authority and how it develops and may
be defused. most of the Neopagans that I've ever found any
value in studying with were primarily anarchic when it came to
informal practices, for example, and realized that for purely
practical reasons some kinds of ceremonial and symbolic basic
agreements were helpful. they didn't usually presume these 
basic agreements sacrosanct or more valuable than expedient.
that discernment was, to the best of them, 'strictly up to the 
gods to decide' (i.e. none of their (or anyone else's) business
other than those who sought mutual usage).

so to the real tools issue.

someone else:
#>#> I know that Gardnerism demands a dull one,
#> 
#> demands?
#> I'm sure I've known Gardnerians with sharp-edged blades.

note: I may have been remembering bolines, which are, by the
      sources I've just consulted, for practical cutting,
      whereas the athame is for directing energies and making
      some kind of sacred space in the astral or wherever.

that said, 'demands' doesn't inform us as to context of usage.
presumably it means 'for rites strictly Gardnerian' and I'm
not sure that thisis true (but it wouldn't surprise me).

# I have heard that a dull athame is a requirement in Gardnerian
# Wicca, but i have seen some fairly sharp "dull" ones. Not
# razor-blade sharp, but far more than butter-knife sharp. Also, i
# have seen some of the modern "fantasy knives" used as athames. 

that's part of the problem. the issues involved are multiplex.

	a) what we've each seen were not official Gardnerian rites.

	but there are user-manuals and Outer Court instructions.

	b) to my knowledge, standards only pertain to the
	   formal rites, not to anything else.

	this being your initial point, I completely agree, and
	this is to a great extent the focus of conversation here. 

	c) there are multiple *lines* of Gardnerians.

	I've encountered mostly Kentucky-line and California-
	line Gardnerians and a few Alexandrians. I'm sure that
	some standards vary, though I'm not sure which of
	these do and whether their particulars may include
	any kind of focus on what number of blade-edges or
	their relative sharpness are to be used for 'official 
	rites'. I recall some bit of instruction about the 
	value of the double-edged blade due to whatever was 
	associated with it 'cutting both ways'.

but for the hell of it, here are some 'Wiccan' expressions
about athames, and we can figure out if they're Gardnerians
(even some Gardnerians dispute over 'proper initiatory
status', and multiple-line initiations are sometimes
suggested and taken just to be sure!):

Steward Farrar (What Witches Do): 
	 nonspecific as to #-edges, 
		black-athame-dull/white-unnamed?-sharp

Scott Cunningham (The Truth.../Wicca, A guide):
	 single- or double-edged 
		black-athame-dull/white-boline-sharp

note: I haven't taken the time to determine if these are
Gardnerians. :> however, they both *did* mention that one
knife should be black-handled (the athame) and that one
should be white (the boline). I'm pretty sure they both
had inscriptions too. otherwise their text conforms in
many ways to what I remembered being instructed, so they
may be some Gardnerian or an offshoot.

so it seems your memory (as usual) was better than mine.
that's why I collect books. if I was really interested
in it I'd get my notes from the class out of the hole. :>
to a certain extent we're talking about unique requirements,
as an extension of an apparently more general claim disputed.

baird@newstaff.com (Baird Stafford):
#># Dull athame: 1) the symbolism is enough to work Magically; 2) dull
#># athames stand little chance of cutting other coveners by accident in
#># Circle.  Remember that Gardnerian Wicca prefers covens to solitary
#># practice.

often reliable on matters Neopagan, Baird is.

whether lineage Wicca is what *constitutes* Wicca is 
the original focus of the thread, and one which will 
be discussed elsewhere as this aside settles. :>

blessed beast!

lorax666

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