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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.tantra From: rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training) Subject: Re: High versus Low Magic(k) Date: 30 Jun 96 14:35:33 CDT Wizard (wizard@primenet.com) wrote: : In article <1996Jun28.200312.121896@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, : rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu (Goddess in Training) wrote: : >Well, ceremonial magick (in its *roots* at least, not necessarily in its : >current forms) is patriarchal and hierarchical, but then so is Wicca;> : >--'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@ : >Renee Rosen : >rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu : >Goddess in Training : Renee, as a "Goddess in Training," don't you think you should do something : like supporting your statements with some sort of evidence? Well, first off, notice the winkey--that statement wasn't meant as totally serious. But, for those who are humorously challenged, I'll attempt to explain. Note I said roots, and not current practice. Modern ceremonial magick has the majority of its roots in hermetic and Kabbalistic practices, which were melded with Freemasonry (not necessarily in the *practices*, but in the structures of their organizations). Most of the early practioners of CM were male--hence, the "patriarchal." Most CM lodges are hierarchical--hence, the hierarchical reference. As for Wicca, it was invented within this century from the same sets of traditions as Ceremonial Magick. Gardner was a Co-Mason. He drew from the same hermetic and Kabbalistic imagery. Also, his conception of the God and Goddess has more to do with hermetic traditions (the union of the male and female principles, for instance), than with any ancient pagan religion. As for the "patriarchal" part, again, we have a tradition founded by a man, with many (but not all) of its early participants being male. Also, Graves was a big source for early Wiccan thealogy, and he's definitely sexist and patriarchal (along with being incredibly heterosexist, but that's another thread). The conception of the Goddess in *early* Wicca is incredibly patriarchal, IMHO. And Gardnerian Wicca is certainly at least as hierarchical as CM, if not more so. Of course, none of this historical background has anything to do with whether modern CM or Wicca is patriarchal or hierarchical, merely that both movements share similar, and in some cases, the same roots, and that the accusation of patriarchal and/or hierarchal could be applied to both. --'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@ Renee Rosen rrosen@lark.cc.ukans.edu "Was I a witch? Goddess in Training In the dark days, I heard Astrud and Astarte on irc voices . . ." http://lark.cc.ukans.edu/~rrosen --Art Bears @}-,--'-- @}-'--,-- @}-,--'--
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