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THrouda's FAQs on Wicca

To: alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (lorax)
Subject: THrouda's FAQs on Wicca (was )
Date: 15 Jul 1996 17:56:17 -0700

kaliyuga
49960715 AA1 NULatix!

tghrouda@ucdavis.edu (THrouda):
|I have a general question to the Wicca Community?

looks like you had several.  I append them all here and respond, cc'ing
you in email.  many of these ought to be covered by the "FAQ" for ARW,
but that "FAQ" was constructed prior to discovering what the actually 
FAQs *were* for the newsgroup, so it is nice to see this type of stuff 
come up here for a change.


|Subject: Why Wicca?
|A difference of opionion exists about what Wicca is.  One view is 
|that its a recreation of old practices of Witchcraft.  Another view is 
|that its simply a creation of Gardner.  

these are both contained within the loose religious system called 'Wicca',
yes.  the popular usage for a *religion* appears to have come into vogue
with Gardner et al.  from there it branched and inspired a greater movement.


|How do you percieve your religion?  
|I know the doctrines and the basic philosophy.  I'm interested in knowing 
|how you view the the two views.  

there are few doctrines, little philosophy has ever been done.  from what
I can tell, Wicca is mostly a practical magical movement, set in motion
by ceremonialist Neopagans who desire to worship, through Indo-Aryan
ceremonials, often "the God" and "the Goddess" (i.e. a pseudo-
judeochristian ostrichist dualism).

in regards the two views you mention:  as a re-creation of old witchcraft
practices, I think it falls rather short when it becomes organized within
Gardnerian tradition (since it is truly a type of ceremonialism rather
than an lifestyle entire and hodge-podge magick brew of which most old
witchcraft probably consisted).

as 'simply a creation of Gardner' this is too limited, since he drew upon
many sources masonic, Rosicrucian, Thelemic, perhaps even folk trads, to
obtain the final form of that time period, plus others such as Valiente
and Buckland et al have since added their own flavors to the pot and 
stirred.


|Does it matter?  I.e. even if Wicca is a new Creation does it change 
|the signigicance? 

to many it does, and this is in part the manifestation of the Great
Martyrdom Cult currents within Wicca and 'Witchcraft' generally.  that
is, we must not only tie it to oldstuff, but "we must not forget all
those witches who were put to the torch during the Burning Times".

that what is done today in the name of Witchcraft or Wicca has little
if anything to do with *whatever* was done, if anything, during what
academics call 'the Witch Craze' subsequent to the Reformation, is of
little consequence to the fanatical Wiccan.

it WOULD change the significance for these fanatics, but for those for
whom Witchcraft, Neopaganism and even Wicca is an *eclectic melting-pot
of a variety of traditional and made-up practices, gods and ideations*,
it would not at all be important (if you haven't guessed, I fall into
this latter category, doing mostly kitchen-witch things with my black-
handled athame and seldom bothering casting circles or doing more than
to fabricate charms and worship the gods as I see fit).


|Subject: Wiccan Moral Flexibility
|...Wicca makes the claim that its very tolerant.  

Wiccans often do, yes.


|Ok, is it tolerant of Wiccan Heretics?  By that I mean, how flexible 
|internally is Wicca?  

'internally'?  I imagine that it varies considerably, depending on the
situation and the people involved.  as there isn't a central locus of
control, people can pretty much do what they want as a solitary.  when
it comes to group rites it will be determined by the consensus or by
whatever hierarchy has been accepted by the Wiccans present (an example
of this latter would be the reigning Priestess in some trads).  

there is no such thing as 'heresy' within Wicca, and I mean by this that
there isn't anything which is excluded by *all* Wiccans or by some sort
of 'Wiccan authority' (the latter of which does not exist in general).

this is not to say that there aren't *controversial* things which would
be excluded from certain subsets of Wicca, such as, in some cases, the 
worship of various malefic or Xtian deities, sacrifice of animals or 
plants, curses, literal sex as the Great Rite, etc., etc.  as in most 
religious traditions which aren't centrally-controlled, it varies 
depending almost entirely based on the local community standards.

among the more mature Wiccans, those who partake of controversial
practices would not be *defined out of Wicca*, they would just be
asked not to participate in the community which does not share their
values or foci.


|What if someone did everything according to the Wicca Book (insert 
|whatever Wiccan source book you like) 

there is no 'Wiccan Book'.  this is one of the wonderful things
about the Way of Wicca (WOW!).  it is not 'biblical' as are most 
forms of Christianity, a great deal of Jewish and Muslim trads,
and some Thelemic pathways.  the only thing which the Wiccans have
of this sort is called the 'Book of Shadows', which is variable of
content, describing a magical tool/diary rather than a doctrinal text.


|but denied the Wiccan Rede.  Or denied the three fold law?  To what 
|extent is this tolerated in Wicca?   And how wide and interpretation 
|is allowed of different dogma? 

this is truly a wonderful question.  again, it will vary considerably
within the Wiccan community based upon the fundamentalism which is
contained therein.  those who are in fact doctrinally-based will not
permit without ostracization the denial of these religious concepts.

and yet in the greater Wiccan community at large they are seen by many
as simply DESCRIPTIONS, not doctrines which must be believed.  that is,
the Wiccan Rede is a good guideline for ethical behavior (this is what
'Rede' effectively means, a guideline or literally 'advice').  and the
3-fold Law is presumed by most Wiccans to be a fundamental magical
dynamic within the cosmos as created by the Goddess (and, sometimes, 
God).  to 'deny' these things is only to ignore what many consider to
be truths, it is not 'heresy' in the sense that if one denies their
existence one must be exiled (though in the most fundamentalist groups
this may take place).

I would note here that I myself deny the reality of the 3-fold Law as
portrayed by Wiccans unless mystically understood (and I'll get into
this if requested but have written of it elsewhere).  for this reason
I call what most Wiccans accept the '3-fold Law of Revenge', because 
I think theirs is a *social* rule which imparts upon the Witch the 
justification for condemning those who do what they take to be 'harm'.  
it is a social mechanism on par (and likely derived of) the Eastern 
notion*S* of 'karma' (lit. 'action').


|Subject: Heretsy[sic]: The Wiccan Rede
|I've seen several posts arguing what the Wiccan rede is.  For the sake of 
|this thread lets assume it is "Do as you will, as long as you harm none." 

often: 'An it harm none, do as ye will.'


|...How far can you as a Wicca twist the meaning. 

there is no central authority within Wicca.  for this reason we can twist
the word's meaning to anything we like.  note, however, that at some point
if we knowingly do this for our own benefit rather than as a means to
reconcile the obviously ambiguous significance of the Rede itself we in 
effect abandon the advice.


|For example, harm is a subjective word.  Is it an immediate harm 
|or a long-term harm, is it over-all harm?  

any type of harm.  I usually describe this as 'unnecessary suffering'
and define 'necessary' as 'that which supports my sustanence'.  there
are admittedly gray areas here, and this is fine.  if immediate harm
is necessary to provide long-term detour from harm, this is fine if
the individual who is being harmed desires it, as I see it (e.g. the
cutting of tissue for the purposes of removing disease).


|What if it looks like harm but may actually be helpful?  

too complex.  you are not isolating the judgement to the individual
Wiccan, where it belongs.  if I do something which looks like harm to
others, then they may oppose me.  if I do not show them that what I do
is helpful, then we may find our energies opposing one another.  this
opposition is *not* a problem.   "As brothers, fight ye."


|Wicca talks about spiritual growth.  By what standard?  

'Wicca' does not "say" anything.  Wiccans say things.  we each have our
own standards and our own religious preferences.  if these do not
conform we may separate and begin our own practice apart from those with
whom we disagree.  else we may stick around and work out our differences.


|A Heretic might argue that growth is the pushing of all thinking to 
|the point X.  What if the current thinking is that the thought X is 
|horrible.  Or what if the current view among Wiccans is that X is a 
|bad to be resisted. 

'the current thinking' is the ambiguity here.  there is no central
Wiccan authority.  for this reason there is a variety of thought
within the Wiccan and greater Neopagan community.  this is to be
encouraged.  diversity of thought is healthy.

if someone doesn't like some thought, then they can either find a way
to exclude the expression of that thought within their coven or, if
the coven prefers the expression, separate from it and form their own 
practices.


|How far can you push interpretation before you are no longer a wicca. 


the identifier "Wiccan" is largely self-ascribed.  some will of course
isolate it to particular traditions or appearances (e.g. Gardnerian,
or those who do ritual worship of archetypal God/Goddess within circles,
etc.).  the tendency *not* to accept someone at their word for their
self-identifier is a sickness within the Neopagan community in general
and one which has come out of the surrounding Judeochristian culture
to infect many Wiccans as well.  for this reason we have Wiccans telling
others who is and who is not a Wiccan, a Satanist, a Christian, etc.

my own Wicca ('Evul Wikkuh') does not include this.   I accept people 
for what they say that they are and try to understand their words 
sufficiently so that we don't have too many miscommunications.  when 
someone says to me 'I am a Wiccan', then I ask them what things they 
do which they would ascribe this label to identifying.  often they are 
able to say something in general or quite specific which lets me know 
'what type' of Wiccan they are (generic, Gardnerian, etc.).


|P.S.  I understand that there are Coven Traditions that if you were to 
|violate you would be removed from the Coven.  But I assume that not all 
|Wiccan covens need to have the same rules, how far can the rules be 
|pushed before a particular tradition is no longer Wiccan?

again, this varies entirely based upon who is trying to make the assessment.
I do not personally recommend making such an assessment as I feel it is
contrary to the very Rede which Wiccans typically attempt to abide (being
rude and invasive).


|Subject: Heresy: Tools of the Trade
|The Wiccans claim to use certain ritual tools- athames, swords, wands, 
|cups, bells, etc.  

many ceremonialists do, yes.


|Are they really needed.  

not by all, no.


|Are they more symbolic than anything else.  

for some, yes.


|Showmanship?  Why use a wand when you can use a finger?  

these are questions which come up between ceremonialists of various sorts
(GD, Chaotes, etc.) all the time.  there is no absolute answer to them,
since a great deal of it depends on what you are trying to do and why
you use what you use -- i.e. who you are.

one answer is that working tools allow a material grounding.  another is
that they provide a focus for working in a way which is conducive to
consistent separation of the 'mundane' world from that 'magical'.
another is that they are like 'training wheels' for those who are not
used to ceremonialism, preparation for more 'astral workings'.
 
there is no one correct answer.  people differ as to their opinions.


|What stops you from taking a ritual using a sword or wand, and changing 
|it into a ritual without use of that tool but accomplishing the same result?

some would say the mind stops us.  some would say our magical ability 
stops us.  some say that we are not capable because we aren't using the
tool designated for the purpose, others that no 'magical link' is used
to effect the change.  it varies alot.  


|Subject: Re: Skygods Reign
|Many posts seem to make a big deal of returning to Goddess worship, 
|overthrowing the patriarchy, etc, etc.  

many feminists are interested in this, yes, though usually they do not
offer much of attractiveness as a replacement or a mechanism by which
another nasty hierarchical system would not merely be installed.


|What makes you think that the matriarchy will do any better this 
|time around?  

see some feminist political newsgroup for a discussion of the basics
on this.  usually the patriarchy=>matriarchy switch is promoted by
those who are new to the political philosophy and identify 'patriarchy'
with 'involving men'.


|Consider that at one point the world was a Matriarchial Society.  

consider that this assertion is extreme and quite debatable as I 
understand from academics.


|But that got pushed aside, first by the Polytheist Patriarchies
|and then by the Monotheistic Patriarchies.  

let us presume this then.


|Why are you trying to recreate something that couldn't hold its own 
|the first time?  What are the goddess religions doing this 
|time that is different?  The goddess didn't protect you the last time. 
|She let the SkyGods soldiers roll right through you.  

I think perhaps it may be of benefit to separate politics and religion
here.  Wicca isn't a government.  it doesn't have a central authority
which would govern whether it was 'matriarchal' or 'patriarchal'.  there
are traditional lineages within Wicca which do reflect these structures
(such as lines of Gardnerianism, Alexandrianism, etc.), but on the whole
Wicca is decentralized along with the rest of the Neopagan movement.

that said, I think that many are trying to reverse the 'priest-dominated
ecclesia' of their upbringing through the installation of women as 
spiritual authorities.  yet even most Wiccans accept Priests too, so I'm
not sure how this argument can be taken too far.

you'd have to be more explicit with your queries.


|How do you know that wasn't the Goddess' will, that wasn't what she 
|wanted.  Are you simply so deeply on the margins of society that you 
|will grasp at anything that gives you hope.

this reminds me so much of the Christian theologians and their discussion
of 'evil' and how it got into the world.  effectively it is silly, and
yet given the premises which many Wiccans uphold, I can understand why
it might come into being.

presuming the reality of some 'Will of Goddess', we can only know it
based on how strong we think it is in relation to the limitations
accepted by Her in order to manifest as Gaia.  (this is the type of
philosophy which is seldom done in Wicca, and that you have provided few 
premises isn't surprising, since most haven't considered them before --> 
is the Goddess omnipotent?  if not, what limits Her power?, etc.).


|Why will the Goddess change things now, when she let them happen 
|the first time?

did She 'let them happen'?  or is She, like the Christian God, 
omniscient and omnipotent (and omnipresent)?? 


|Some responses have discussed the importance of balance.  Was this 
|balance there originally.  

I will begin answering these queries from my own favorite perspective
of the moment.  as an entirety, 'Mother Nature' is as She is and always
was as She was, changing form as befits Her mood and maturity.  She had
no 'originally', since this is a cyclic cosmos in which we live and Her
previous forms were those derived from the kaotik splendour of darkened
waters known to some through stories as 'Tiamat'.

'Mother Nature' (a microcosm 'Gaia') doesn't 'let things happen', nor
does She 'make things happen'.  She infuses everything as Herself
and becomes diversified through desire, lust.  She seems to like to
play by certain 'game rules' and I am unsure as yet that these may
be broken by Her through microcosmic or macrocosmic influence. 


|IF the balance is so important why was it knocked away by the 
|unbalanced forces.  Why go back to this balance?  Why try, what 
|is to gain from it?

'balance' is an oft-misunderstood concept.  static as a literal
descriptor, often favored prior to the conception of the dynamic
and therefore 'equilibrium' (something which regains balance over
time after unbalancing), 'balance' points toward something humans
have desired greatly since their evolution from slime: permanence
and stability.

unfortunately for these desires, there is no permanence, no unchanging
entities within Mother Nature, despite the fanciful fabrications we
see fit to seize to make it not so.  the Judeochristian notions of
souls is but a reflection of this desire, and when our forms change
in a manner not unlike waves shifting over the surface of the sea,
ultimately dissolving back into the Great Cosmic Mom-goo, we shall
begin to understand that our hope for permanence was ill-founded,
ill-conceived and logically flawed.

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
lorax of the evul wikkhun buddhists

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