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To: alt.religion.goddess,alt.religion.wicca,alt.pagan
From: Day Brown 
Subject: Comparing ancient & modern wicca.
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:43:17 -0500

To be sure, many who now proclaim themselves to be wiccan started with 
books published by authors whose sources are not verifyable. But for 
that matter, we could say much the same about those who call themselves 
'Christian'. And indeed the Christians themselves have always argued 
about what Christianity is.

But to call the modern practice of wicca 'Chalcolithic matriarchic 
reconstructionalism' seems to me to be a mouthful. we need a short
term to apply to both the ancient and modern spiritual path.

Certainly, there are profound differences which frankly need to be gone 
into more fully by those who say they are reclaiming the traditions of 
their ancestors. Some are very challenging.

Were you to tell me of a Navajo shaman who would not use peyote, I'd 
think something was fishy. Likewise, a Mayan shaman would would not use 
their sacred shroom, the pscilocbe. But despite the claims of 
Christians, the church was never as universal as the Christian 
aristocracies claimed. There are still pagan graveyards and shamen in 
Finland, there are still Ugarit Shamen in the Northern Urals, whose 
practice was never successfully repressed by Christian clerics. These 
genuine European pagans used Amanita Muscaria in ritual. Anyone claiming 
to have recovered Native European practice who cannot use the ancient 
entheogenic potions in ritual will have some explaining to do.

Then too, there is the issue of skyclad. By all accounts, the sanctions 
against nakedness are not Native European, but the import of Levantine 
traditions. The retention of clothes in ritual is understandable given 
the Christian socialization and legal sanction we are all subject to. 
But I dont doubt that those wiccans or pagans who can perform skyclad in 
ritual will be seen as more authentic.

There are also laws against 'animal sacrifice'. The Santorini practice 
of ritually killing a chicken and facing charges raises questions about 
racism and religious repression. I wont try to defend it, that belongs 
to those who are part of the Santorini tradition. But I have been a part 
of ritual which sacrificed a goat, but then, because Dionysus loves a 
good party, we had a barbie. Would it have been better to ship the goat 
off to a slaughterhouse instead of taking him from the adjacent pasture 
to the altar? I myself am repulsed at the Levantine form of animal 
sacrifice, in which the poor beast is placed atop a pyre on the altar 
and burned entirely up to the greater glory of what passed for god.

But to be present at the death of an animal you are going to eat, 
strikes me as including a lesson about the sacredness of all life. A 
witch or shaman who could not perform this method of 'kosher' meat would 
seem to lack authenticity.

And then, there is ritual sex. Perhaps the most challenging, the most 
likely to result in litigation if minors even witness it. The ancients, 
as we can see with the Latin meaning of the word 'pagan', were rural; 
lived in small gene pools with very limited numbers of potential sexual 
partners, and therefore, at very little risk from STDs. If a young man 
went to the whores in the city, considering the rigors needed to cover 
primitive terrain to his home village, he either got over, or died, from 
whatever he might have picked up in a brothel.

The moderns are largely urban. What with HIV, the risk is horrendous. 
But if, as a practical matter, the ancient pagan wiccans in some obscure 
village, felt they could carry on with their ritual sex as they always 
had without significant risk, it begs the question of whether STD 
testing is not an even better, more reliable method of assuring safety, 
while at the same time, providing a spiritually valuable experience.

The reason that typhoid became so rare, was that those exposed felt no 
social sanction or inhibition in reporting possible sources of 
infection. Were the general culture as open about their sexuality, then 
all the STDs would be as rare as typhoid. It is only thru the pretense 
of chastity that STDs remain a severe problem without solution. Were 
ritual sex an acceptable activity, then people would frankly report 
sexual contacts. Were it an acceptable activity, then no one who hoped 
to be a part of ritual, or joined a group with that hope, could object 
to STD testing. And anyone who wished to become a member of a group, 
could certainly understand testing as a pre-requisite, but I might add, 
not limited to STDs, but Hepititus, tuberculosis, or any other pathogen 
that they might carry.

Not that everyone within either an ancient or modern group needed to 
take part in ritual sex, but that because it was possible, everyone had 
a duty to act responsibly, which in the case of us today, would include 
STD and *socially* transmitted diseases. I submit that the example is a 
higher order of ethics- in that since monogamy sounds noble in 
principle, the hypocrisy & decite are worse, and with HIV, deadly.

If the Christians can get their kids to just say no, more power to them. 
But for those who cannot abide the advice, I think there is some other 
option than the service now provided by young attractive stud muffins, 
or those 'rituals' which the kids themselves may devise. I have seen in 
my own community, the outrage over an incident in Leslie AR some years 
ago regarding the largely exaggerated reports of a 'wiccan' ritual that 
was designed and performed by some girls wanting to practice what they 
thot was 'the Craft'.

There are also notorious reports of men claiming a spiritual authority 
designing and performing rituals with young women; altho, I would 
imagine there are also events among only males. But if we find that 
these rituals designed by young girls or sexually active men to be 
repugnant, the logical solution would be to let the mothers of minors 
come up with some alternative.  I dunno that such a ritual should be 
outlined here in a public forum, for if we are to follow ancient 
practice, the *mystery* of what the ancient witches had planned was no 
doubt part of the value which novices expected in sacred experience. 
Homo Sapiens seems to have an instinct for excitement, which is somewhat 
met in entering a sacred space at a sacred time, and not knowing what 
will transpire there.

Anthropology reports of native rituals all over this planet, and as far 
back in history or pre-history as we can see, suggests that these rites 
of passage include occult or secret knowledge; people like to be 
surprised. No doubt 'secret knowledge' is what alpha male characters 
like David Koresh were presumed to have motivated adolescent females to 
place themselves in situations we regard as emotionally dangerous. We 
have seen uncounted times in ancient or recent history where some 
Christian cleric used his position to gain access to children for what 
we now regard as pedophilia.

The only way to avoid this is for the 'secret knowledge' to reside in 
the hands of the coven, the mothers of the minors, or other mature women 
of the community. Only they will be viewed by our patriarchic political 
system with the moral authority to plan and perform appropriate 
spiritual rituals, and in this way, avoid the witch hunts or hysteria we 
now see Christian organizations like the Catholic priesthood trying to 
deal with. All native spiritual traditions, all over the world, have 
always had these 'puberty rites', and the failure- by those now engaged 
in trying to reconstruct Native European spirituality- to come up with a 
meaningful ritual, leaves the Christian fanatics and other repressive 
elements in the system free to make up whatever rumors they think will 
be believed.

Many of us saw an announcement here of a Tantric temple in NYC; I have 
some quibbles with what they say they do, but nevertheless am hopeful 
that what some might regard as temple prostitution is successful. I 
assume that NYC already has a large number of hookers; if some can be 
taught to apply their talent in a spiritual setting, and add this 
element to the experience of those who take part, I can see that it 
would do some good for the women offering the service as well. Go a long 
ways twards dealing with self esteem issues.

Hand fasting takes up most of the discussions I have heard by those I 
have seen in Arkansas discussing ritual. Which is good as far as it 
goes, but that only covers one of the rites of passage. Another that has 
come up more recently is funerals. Not nearly as much fun, but an issue 
with important economic repercussions. Traditionally, Native Europeans 
used excarnation. Since this requires no casket nor embalming, the cost 
to the family would be trivial rather than something needing careful 
financial planning. Then too, typically, the bones are collected a year 
later and stored in an ossiary, not needing a cemetary plot. And in the 
event it should prove useful, it would be easy to go to the ossiary to 
extract a DNA sample to identify genetic disease, lineage, or whatever.

If what came out of a Crematorium smokestack was found in the exhaust of 
a powerplant, they'd shut the thing down because of air pollution. But, 
if you go to the location of excarnation, what you get is compost.



Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:29:51 -0500
From: Day Brown 
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janet wrote:

> Day Brown wrote:
> a very great deal....
> 
> 
> Ancient Wicca?
If it walks like a duck, its a duck. The 'wiccan trads' all claim to be 
heritage to oral tradtion. Were we to hear this of Native Africans or 
Native Americans, nobody would challenge them. But- the propaganda of 
the Xian church has been most effective in the history of Europe, and 
convinced most people that whatever the ancient wiccans did is lost.

Someone on another thread said I started with puberty rites, when in 
fact I did not, but outlined several rites of passage which the ancient 
witches practiced which modern witches do not: Animal sacrfice, 
excarnation, & sacred potions did not nearly hit the hot buttons as 
pubtery rites did. Looking back over the last century, we can see many 
times in which the public sought scapegoats, anarchist, Nazis, commies, 
homosexuals, and now they are getting around to pedophiles.

As if they have not always been with us. And just as we now look back on 
these earlier hysterical witch hunts, and now see the misrepresentations 
of radical agendas. Then as now, everyone realizes there is a problem, 
and everyone operated with moral certainty without much in the way of 
scientific or sociological understanding of what was really going on.

Perhaps conspicuously absent in my list of the original rites of passage 
is hand fasting. IIRC, I mentioned archaeologist JP Mallory's finding 
that there was no word for 'marraige'. Which explains why everyone lived 
in large communal houses. Nor, have I mentioned 'christianings'. I have 
yet to see any iconography or ritual apparatus that I can apply.

I have been advised to speak with my local mental health services. Odd, 
that health services were a large part of the services which made 
ancient wicca so very successful. But I guess people missed my point 
about mental health services, which is that they too, have been hung up 
in their own myths, which have, several times over the course of the 
last century, seen frauds perpetrated against a gullible public.

The suicide and divorce rate among shrinks should raise questions, but I 
seem to be the only one here who is willing to speak of the failures of 
the mental health professionals, who sometimes do good, but other times 
are the blind leading the blind. Why is it that the only 'spiritual 
values' of the mental health profession are based on the Levantine 
scriptures?

Over the last century, one of the most famous pagans, Aristotle, was 
ignored or quietly put down for implying that 'most men are such slaves 
to passion they'd do better in the hands of a more rational master', or 
suggesting the men are born with personalities, rather than being just 
'blank slates' for behaviorists to write on.

The behaviorist model started 'Head Start' under the Johnson 
administration, and while it certainly has done some good, we kept on 
seeing street thugs who graduated out of all of their social programs.
Now, what with more sophisticated brain scans and molecular hormone 
analysis, it is revealed that some of are born with unusual psyches 
which no pre school, much less 'talking thereapy' can do anything about.

The American prison system has been seen as a disgrace, in that we lock 
up more young men for longer terms than anyone. But since Reagan started 
this policy, we have seen the crime rate continually fall, but nobody 
seems to realize that filtering the thugs out of the gene pool might 
have some effect. But prison is a very expensive, and not all that 
efective 'treatment' program.

For nearly 100 years now, anthropologists have gone to live with 
natives, sometimes with their children. I have a friend of a friend who 
was raised this way, including the 'puberty rites' which has got so many 
people all wound up. Everything I've been told about him suggests that 
he adapted well to modern culture. I was told as well, that he returned 
to marry a native woman, and had kids with her. But when she died, since 
it was a matrifocal culture, he lost any standing within the tribe, and 
brought his kids back with him to live in America. Again, the reports 
which I have show they dont have 'developmental' problems which the 
critics of my proposals have said would result.

If someone would provide studies, or even a few reports of the problems 
which people in this culture had as adults from being in native puberty 
rites, I'd be grateful for the insight. However, so far, all I have seen 
is moral condemnation based on the assumptions of the mental health 
profession along with the legal problems. The Greeks were well aware of 
the problem of imposing their values on others, and sought insights 
based on the observations of the way things worked for people, rather 
than, as I see it, relying on the Levantine tradition to establish what 
is 'right' or 'wrong'.

I have met several women who tell me they suffered sexual abuse. I have 
done surveys online at lists like this, and something on the order of 
30% report abuse. "American family values" seems to include some 
practices we find horrendous when we discover them, but somehow, nobody 
talks about what a more effective procedure might be. 'Just say no' dont 
work, and everyone here knows that. Saying that the pedophile should be 
drawn and quartered gratifies our instinct for scapegoats, but does 
nothing to protect the kids. The pedophiles are not rational enough to 
be deterred by legal threats of prison or any other form of punishment.

We need to come up with a more rational system. We would do well, at the 
least, to do a comprehensive survey of the people in our culture who 
were exposed to the values of native cultures to see if the proposals 
relating to puberty rites have the effect people assume they do.

If you've read this far, perhaps you have noted as I did, that many of 
those who challenged me on puberty rites are the same people who 
challenge wiccans saying that it is a made up religion. If the result of 
the proposed agenda would be as bad as they say, then why do they not 
keep silent, and enjoy watching wiccans being persecuted for being the 
fools which they think wiccans are?

Whether I get off on this sexually or not, I certainly do enjoy seeing 
the challenge to my proposals. How else would I find the aspects needing 
further consideration? It is curious too, that these critics of wicca, 
who presumably rely on the philosophy of science, have not cited me the 
scientific studies to support their moral values. Anyone read Plato?



Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:56:32 -0500
From: Day Brown 
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Nobody has time to go into all the threads in this.
But for one, Europe, as with many other regions, has been infested with 
secret societies and mystery rites as far back as anyone cares to look.
The Masons & the Jewish Caballa being just two of the more well known.
Why 'wicca' or 'witchcraft' should be excluded as existing in any 
durable way escapes me. But if you dont look for it, you dont see it, 
and if you approach the whole issue of wicca with a dismissive attitude, 
all you get is flame wars rather than any insight.

China had 'nu shu'  for centuries at least, in which women wove 
meaning into the way they created cloth that went right past the eyes of 
the patriarchic system they lived in. Only in recent times have some few 
of the aged women who knew about this spilled the beans knowing that 
they were no longer under risk of litigation. China seems to have a more 
open attitude about their past than I've seen among posters here.

Gimbutas, for one, went into obscure corners of europe to reconstruct 
early cosmology and myth going back 7000 years. She didnt report on, 
perhaps didnt look for 'witchcraft'. The German government proved that 
herbal knowledge was handed down in rural healer oral tradition, but yet 
some here assume that the associated 'spells', chants or whatever could 
not have survived. I have no position on the authenticity of any given 
trad which any witch has told me she recieved from some tutor, using the 
same oral tradition methods seen in other cultures. Why would we assume 
that they were all frauds? I spoze there are some, just as there are 
some I hear in the 'Lakota' tradition are called frauds. Be that as it 
may, it dont prove that all wiccan trads are frauds, unless you choose 
to define 'wiccan' as those practices which are frauds. But if you do 
so, then what word would you apply for those trads which are 
'authentic', and why not grant the same right to Native Europeans to 
call their practice what they want as those who try to reconstruct other 
Native traditions. If it walks like a duck, its a duck.

As for the Nazi, I dont defend them any more than any other group who 
were villified in America media. Only to say that the representations 
were subject to mass hysertia. Were the American media more interested 
in destroying the credibility of the Nazis, they would have actually 
read what Neizsche had to say about such anti-semetic demogogues. But it 
was more profitable to exploit the hysteria. Likewise today, it is more 
profitable to exploit the hysteria over pedophilia and sexual abuse 
rather than doing anything useful about it. In the USA, it is pedophilia 
if a man has sex with a female under 18. In Canada 14; in Copenhagen, 
12. So how is it that I see these representations of moral certainty 
about any individual case? If he fucked her in International Falls, it's 
a moral problem, but if he crosses the river into Ontario it aint? Scuze 
me?  Didnt any of these with such moral certainty read Plato? How is it 
that you define a 'horrendously bad idea'? Other than the fact that it 
offends *your* sense of values? Any scientific basis to support them?

I can see a wiccan be concerned, worried about repression, but the truth 
is still the truth, that we were all raised in a culture based on the 
Levantine scriptures, and am not used to thinking outside that box. 
Truth has a reputation for making people uncomfortable, driving them to 
challenge the messenger with ad hominum when they cant challenge the 
message. If you understood the psyche of the pedophile, you'd realize 
that your moral certainty and outrage, as good as it feels to vent here, 
does nothing whatever to solve the problem. I have not tried to garner 
sypathy for Nazis or pedophiles. I have tried to show how the hysteria 
perpetuates the problem rather than solves it.

Many of the 'harmful rituals' were not concocted by me, but practiced 
for centuries or millennia by cultures whose value systems seem just as 
valid as what we think we have. I still dont see where any of those who 
are posting on this have offered any scientific studies to support their 
own moral representations. It frankly looks racist and provincial.

As for Plato, I am not asking for any socratic sacrifice at the altar of 
the current Levantine legal system. The Levantine system is breaking 
down, which is one reason the 10 commandments was recently removed from 
a courthouse; we all saw the video. Over the course of the last century, 
we've seen the sanctions against masturbation, premarital sex, abortion, 
homosexuality, and now even pederasty abandoned by the legal and mental 
health professionals. I dont know how far we should go down the path of 
  liberation, but I can see that moral certainty is a lame duck.

And no, Plato didnt say didly about pedophilia. but he did point out the 
way that people think about their moral values is illogical. You mite 
consider Petronius, the Satyricon, and consider how a 12 year old boy 
manipulates the fuck out of his frat boy masters. The Romans thot it was 
hilarious. Values vary, values change; whatever they will be, will be 
based on human nature, not scripture. Trying to understand pedophiles, 
racists, anti-semites, Jihadim, et al will lead us to solutions. But go 
ahead, I know flaming is fun. What we say here is such a small part of 
the whole process I cant get all that worked up about it.

Part of understanding is looking at what our ancestors practiced. This 
is not to say that we should do as they did, but we should *know*. It is 
not 'cultural theivery' for Native Europeans to do this any more than it 
is for any Native tradition. I too- see many who appear to be fluff 
bunnies, but dont see why that would exclude anyone who wishes to call 
themselves 'wiccan' from looking into more scientific sources and the 
anthropological reports of European oral tradition.

What *I* want, is irrelevant. It would be interesting to see the court 
challenge regarding sacred sex, which may, or may not, cross the frankly 
arbitary 18 year old threshold. But courts work on a binary system: 
guilty, or innocent, and they are trying to do it in an increasingly 
variable world. IT would also be interesting to see animal sacrifice, 
excarnation, and other spiritual values. Be fun to get rid of the 
sanctions against certain commonly spoken words in the media. I see 
Chapelle on Comedy Central use 'nigger' freely.

I know moral ambiguity is an uncomfortable state, but the Goddess did 
not give birth to a binary universe of good & evil. Get over it.




Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:23:57 -0500
From: Day Brown 
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janet wrote:
> I can't think of anyone who still buys the idea of a peaceful, goddess
> worshipping united culture across Europe.
I didnt say that Janet. I dunno what other crackpot theories might be
out there, but I was quite specific as to era and location. Which is 
*not* 'across Europe', but only in the Chalcolithic era, 8000-4000 BCE,
in the agarian communites on the floodplains of the rivers from the 
Danube to the Dneipr, from the Black sea coast inland as far as a
chalcocite mine (5000BCE) in what is now Southern Germany.

The rest of Germany, the rest of the whole fucking planet, was 
practicing the arts of war on a regular basis.

I'm sorry I did not notice this confusion earlier. I thought I had
cited on several occassions just where and when the Golden Age of
Peace actually reigned.

There are powerful political and economic reasons why this occurred.
One of them was a study done on the transhumescent cultures of Anatolia,
from which these ancient wiccans had emmigrated, and mixed with the 
local indigeneous populations. Ryan & Pitman discuss the catostrophic 
effect of the chronic droughts of the Younger Dryas 6200 BCE. Refugees 
are not very warlike. But anyway, the point of the study was, that 
because of the introduction of stock & grain raising, the amount of land 
that a community needed to defend as it's resource base shrunk by a 
*factor of 500*, compared to the indigeneous hunting lifestyle.

Most of Europe, until the most recent millennia, were hunting tribes.
Look at their camps; just as the hunting tribes in other parts of the 
world, a few score of warriors would be all they could put in the field.
Chatal Hoyuk had a population in excess of 5000. Hunting warriors are 
brave, but they aint suicidal.

There is a similar phenomena found in the New World, the earliest 
agarian community that used irrigation in the Peruvian desert. Again, we 
find no evidence of warfare, this time for 1500 years. Surf Peru, Caral
culture/city. I read of a wall they built to keep out the barbarians. 
But the population continually expanded, got into the business of 
monument building (which is why the found it) and eventually, maybe an 
El Nina~ or weather disturbance, any way famine, and it's bee war off 
and on ever since.

But the ancient wiccan communities did not go thru population boom & 
bust cycles. And here, is where the herbal knowledge comes in. Edw 
Gibbon, the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, reports that the witch 
burnings began in the 5th century because the Bishops thot, quite 
correctly, that the witches were providing 'family planning'. and as we 
see in the Neanderthal grave, herbal knowledge goes way back. 
Unfortunately for Peruvian Carcal, Egypt, and the Levant, the ecosystem 
did not seem to provide efficacious herbs.

> I have no idea  about websites, nor do I have much time to search for them.
> Have a look at the article above, or get hold of an academic journal.
I'm not interested in more academic bullshit. show me the report of the
*dig*, what weapons were found, the bones in the debris of the houses, 
and all of the other myriad pieces of evidence left behind after a place
has been pillaged and burned after a successful seige.

> Timothy Taylor might be worth a look, as well - I've no idea what he's done
> in the past couple of years but his PreHistory of Sex was well worth a read.
I may still have that, or it may be loaned out. It is worth reading.
It is also worth thinking about how arbitrary our sexual practices and
puberty rites are.


>>>>Hmmm. and what term do you propose that will have meaning to
>>>>'wiccans' for the ancient ideas and practices of those the
>>>>'wiccans' claim heir to?
>>
>>>Witchcraft.
>>>Magic use.
>>>Religion?
>>What is mising is political and economic control.
> And that was?

> Are you arguing for one political system across... what, Europe?  Based on
> Goddess and God worship?
Nope. I apply 'ancient wicca' only to the agarian Chalcolithic Slavic 
transylvanian cultures. Mainly the Vinca, Petresti, & Cucuteni, but 
these are actually just pottery styles. The culture also included an 
unprecidently rich economy: shipping salt from Halstatt & Chalcocite 
from the mine in Germany. They *invented* arsenic bronze before 5000 
BCE, which they used to make the world's first bronze woodworking tools 
to build the world's first fishing fleet with plank hulled sail boats.

They had a monopoly on salted fish, produced vast quantities of the 
highest quality pottery, and had the most advanced textile industry when 
the hunting tribes were all wearing heavy leather. The French found a 
dig outside of Paris that looks like a 'Hudson Bay trading post', again
5000 BCE.

> I have no idea of any such ancient, widespread practice, political unity or
> cult.
It wouldnt have made much sense until computers began to run the tools
to see how self organizing market systems evolve. The ancient wiccans 
left *no monuments*. There was no capitol city, just hundreds of 
villages and a few dozen market towns. But anyone who understands the 
power of a market to modify behavior can see how this all would have 
evolved.

> Gimbutas claimed that there was a unified, political and cultural system
> across the ancient world?
I never read where she said that. The two books of hers which I have
seen were mostly images of artifacts with background explaining where 
they were found, and where she has seen similar or deriviative forms.

I know she was wrong about the 'original home of the Aryans', but also
know she only put it forth as a proposal.

> She sanctioned your use of the concept of "wicca"? Or even of one term to
> cover the cults of ancient Eurasia?
AFAIK, no. I have no idea what her opinion of wicca is, I never read
anything she had to say about it.

>>>You have posted suppositions about what was going on in ancient
>>>socieites and have pasted the title "wiccan" across them.
>>>
>>>Is there *any* academic support for such usage?
>>
>>Not that I know of.
> 
> 
> Then why insist on it?
> 
> What is the value of doing so?
> 
>  But then, they dont claim to be wiccans, and would
> 
>>not care. I'm trying to show some of the roots to wicca which have
>>been found, which were of no interest to academics or archaeologists.
> 
> 
> ROOTS yes, I don't deny that.
> 
> And they are of interest - if you think that they are not, please have a
> look around.
I dunno Janet; Academia is full of politically correct thinking.



Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:23:25 -0500
From: Day Brown 
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Aetyr wrote:

> "Day Brown"  wrote in message
> news:3f8dda9c_5@127.0.0.1...
> 
>>Aetyr wrote:

>>>Also the opium trade ran all over India and Europe for
>>>uncounted thousands of years, as it does today, thru Afghanistan.  I
>>>read that particular work on the postulation that soma may have
[Wasson, Persephone's Quest]
>>>been hallicinagenic mushrooms, and I disagree with it.  The
>>>Vayatras, who were itenerant arrow makers and followed the
>>>warrior class around, weere renouwned makers of soma....the
>>>details of which remained secret...and soma was used to treat
>>>the wounded and kill pain.  Mushrooms would not produce this
>>> effect,

>>>but opium is the most famous pain killer the world ever knew.
>>>But the fact remains, the formula for soma has been lost.
I cant stop them from calling it 'soma'; they are part of a warrior 
tradition, which does not seem to be a part of the earlier, peaceful, 
Chalcolithic potion Wasson speaks of. Cultures have done a lot of 
redefinition, and it certianly confuses the issue.

>>You have academic research. I have taken Soma in ritual.
> You've taken a mixture that YOU call soma.
And you speak so knowledgably, but you have not?

> Nope, you don't need to be in a visual state to determine what
> carvings are.  That is some 60's drug nonsenc  Many people here
> have taken psychotropic mushrooms...even rutually.  They offer no
> real advice on the neolithic.
I have no idea why they remain silent.

> There is no argument here, except this one, the formula for soma
> has been lost, and the idea that psychotropic mushrooms were the
> foundation of soma is a theory...one that I do not agree with.
> Your argument with this is that you BELIEVE that the formula for
> soma has been rediscovered, and that the foundation was the
> mushrooms.  Your taking mushrooms, ritually or other wise ,
> proves nothing.  Sorry about that, but it proves zilch.
Proves nothing to who? Those who would never try a potion?
The Amanita is all over European folk art. There is a reason.
P 219, Gimbutas, fig 226, she lables it as 'phallic', but what
she shows us, is an Amanita about 6 hours after emergence from
the ground, shortly before the cap opens up. Course, you wouldnt
know that, unless you hunted, and successfully found them, and
became familiar with all the various stages of development.

And, then too, the decoration is really trippy. But you would
not appreciate that aspect either unless you have tripped.

>>>The excretia of holy persons has always been consumed in the
>>>orient.

>>And does it have the same effect as an entheogen?
> You mean do the buddists hallicunate or experience an ecstatic
> visionary state?  I really doubt that.  My point was not that
> they would do these things, but that it is pretty normal for them
> to revere and injest the excretia of holy persons.
Well, Wasson notes, that if you use the piss from an Amanita taker,
it *is* a powerful potion, not just the placebo effect. And, he cites
the ancient veda which describes this. Buddhists, of course, are known
for being able to get to the trance with nothing at all.


> Yeah.  I'd make a safe bet that opium would work for anybody.
As below. But can you cite a spiritual tradition which uses opium
as their preferred entheogen? It certainly has valuable medicinal
effects. but off hand, I cant think of it in a sacred space. The
closest I can think of is a Minoan female figure; she's dancing
with opium poppies in her tiera.

> Taje a dim view of excretia or mushrooms?  You really need to
> work harder at clarity.
Yes I know. But we have no pretense of great literature here, just
typing off the cuff, allong with ltosa flubs.

>>>Opium produces dreams, it has hallicinagenic porperties.  But
>>>soma was a substance that above all gave a feeling of well
>>> being,
Have you tried it? have you tried Amanita Muscaria with a meat fat?
You can order it online, it *is* legal. I've done opium too, and it
is quite nice, but it does not produce the emotional or spiritual
insights I have had with Soma.

>>It was discovered before the invention of alcoholic beverages.
> 
> 
> Actually , there is no eveidence at all of that.  In fact, there
> is a wealth of eveidence to the contrary.
In other parts of the world. None of the wiccan pots appear to be for
brewing.  But then, if you eat Amanita Muscaria Soma with alcohol in
your system, it'll make you so sick you'll wish you were dead. Pick one:
use either booze, or use Soma.
> 
> 
> 
> It was also
> 
>>routinely ingested by people who had meat fats in the diet, not
> 
> the
> 
>>vegetable oils now commonly used.
> 
> 
> Why bring in vegitable oils?  It has nothing to do with your
> argument.
> 
> 
> The kicker of course, is that the
> 
>>Ugarit shamen advised a meat fat.

> That's the only kind of fat available in ancient times.  BTW,
> there are no vegetable fats.  You're thinking of margarine.
vegetable fats dont protect the gastric system from upset. I thot
everyone knew that Amanita Muscaria was 'poison'. With a meat fat,
there's no problem.

> Because shamans in china took mushrooms does not mean that the
> Indus civilization used mushrooms in soma.  Sorry, but no
> connection,  Except in your mind of course.
The Ugarit Shamen lived in the Northern Urals. I dont know what
shrooms, if any, the Chinese used, What are they like?

> What lies do you expect to subtract from a midden heap?  You're
> whacko my friend.  And you ain't no archaeologist.  You find
> refuse in a midden heap, not lies.  Oh, I forgot, we're going on
> what you DON'T find in midden heaps to write history by.  I
> didn't ever find a spaceship in one.  I suppose that makes
> spaceships a truth then.

> What the hell are you calling native traditions now?  Its not
> magic, its worship.  As a ten cent wiccan, this distinction
> should ring a bell with you.
Would you explain why this isnt racist? Were you to call native American 
as a 'ten cent shaman', people would jump all over your shit. As for a 
dime, you know whats on the back of the real silver ones? Maybe you can 
recall the bundle of rods with a double bitted axe, the symbol of civil 
authority. From the Romans, who used the rods to beat ciminals, and the 
axe to behead them. Then consider the evolution of that symbol when you 
see me cite it again below.

> Face it pal.  He didn't call a raj a witch.. You did.  Raj means
> ruler, as in the British Raj.  You put the little witchy face on
> it because you live in a fantasy world.
Well, enlighten me. We see a female tribal leader who uses her 'magical 
powers' (whatever they may be) with great wisdom. What would you call
such a woman, and why is she not a 'witch'?

> Your two sentances don't go togerther.  The fact that pots retain
> herbal residue is pretty banal in the world of artifact, and the
> continuation of folk art is also not really surprising...however,
> none of these things tie in with "whatever the power of sorcery
> may have been", as you said above.  You got D's in composition
> didn't you?
Ad hominum displays the lack of an argument. But to try to be more clear,
we accept that herbal knowledge can be transmitted across millennia in 
oral history, but deny it with regard to ritual, magic, and spritual
values? The German government found that the herbal knowledge was in 
fact valuable, so why would we expect these other parts of the oral 
tradition to be worthless? The herbal residue in ancient wiccan pots
would seem to date the herbal knowledge, but yet, not date the other
cultural values? That strikes me as inconsistent.

> More unrelated sentances.  The age of the population in Varna is
> significant only when you tell us what era the graves are
> from...which you didn't.  And by the way...unless you are ready
> to unequivically state that the entire neolithic population
> practices witchcraft...which would be a hilarious and unprovable
> thing to say.....then what the hell ARE you talking about?
Since I've been talking of the Chalcolithic era, I thot it was
understood. Chalcocite is the first copper ore which was smelted, as
with Utzi's axe, which because Chalcocite has native arsenic in it, 
results in a really fine, hard bronze. Gimbutas dates it to 5500 to 3500 
BCE, but the culture itself evolved with stone tools, aceramic, but 
agarian, not nomadic hunters or herders. Course, nobody hasta read 
everything I write, so maybe you missed it.

> Don't think I agree with you.  I don't.  I thought you were just
> a flake with a mission, but after reading your thoughts on
> puberty rites, I realize that you live in a fantasy world and
> have twisted ideas divorced from common sense.  Let me be clear
> about this.


> LOL I bet you do!  But you don't have the discipline or education
> to evaluate any of these finds.....you use them as a tool to
> further your personal fantasies.
Well, I'm the one who has cited authors and books here.

> I would sigh heavily, but that would be a waste of precious
> breath.  Since you're a man, I must ask, why do you hate
> yourself?
I'm a beta; I dont need to denigrate women to feel powerful.

> You see, this is only part of the problem.  How do YOU even know
> what wicca is, since it changes every 6 months?  And yet you are
> moe than reasy to make up tales about THOUSANDS of years about
> history..You don' have a problem with this do you?
That's a damn good point. But everything seems to change every 6 months
these days except for presidential administrations. We live in hope.
As for the ancient wiccans, how many odd facts do you have to look at, 
before you realize you have something very unique. Matriarchy has been 
assumed to be tyranny by women rather than men. It is not, never was.
The sexual practices were no doubt very challenging to women. but then,
those in power, only stay in power, by exercising self control. In their 
case, fucking men who were not their husbands or lovers. I dont think 
that modern wiccans get that yet, but I think it will take more than 6 
months to get it across.

As for making stuff up, take a look at the artifacts depicted by 
Gimbutas in 'The Goddesses & Gods of Old Europe'. Look at the list of 
innovations:
p 18: plank hull sail boat, 5000 BCE
p 87:Script on a platter 5000 BCE, on spindle whorls, 4500 BCE
p 163: kinky garter belt
p 75: seive
p 84: *bronze* grain sickle 5000 BCE
various pages, dildos labled 'phallic wands'.
p 81: Krater, sacred mixing bowl still used by Greeks. but - 4500 BCE
p 74,80,84: doll chairs, furniture.
p 72: oven with chimney
p 79: doll house with chimney
Figures wearing tailored clothes, pants, blouses, etc. all over.
p 150: square 4 footed ram's head bowl, very similar to one found in
the grave of an Amazon buried in the permafrost... which preserved the
cannibis which was ritually used in it. Herodotus describes the 
'Scythians' using hemp by placing it in a bowl over the hot rocks of a 
sweat lodge. vaporizing the essential oils.
And that's just this book. In others, you find out that they left us the 
world's first woodworking tools. For a while there was a website up 
about a timber frame well casing found in Austria which dendochronology 
dates to 5078 BCE. They couldnt have done it with stone tools.

And, like I say, sometimes it aint what you find, but what you didnt, 
which you do *everywhere* else. The first thing that every other culture 
did when they discovered how to work bronze, was make weapons. They 
didnt leave us any in the wiccan digs. Jewelry, belt buckles, grain 
sickles, woodworking tools. Even the last, the famous Varna grave, what 
appears to be spear points are too thin; only good for fish. The 'double 
axes' have handles as thin as a pencil, and the double 'axes' are made 
of thin hammered gold. Turns out, that what we have here, is not a 
weapon, but a magic wand. And not an axe, but the butterfly, which as
Gimbutas explains, because it emerges from the 'dead crysalis' was seen 
as the symbol of rebirth. Hence the wand is not the symbol of death seen 
in patriarchic cultures, but the promise of an afterlife.

Clearly, the list of innovation is unprecidented, and would call for 
some kind of radical theory to explain why they are all togather.

> Gasp!  The "ancient wiccans" did not drive the wooly mammoth and
> the cave bear and the saber tooth cat to extinction?  Gee, I
> wonder what happened to them.  They were doing so good and all.
These species were extinct long before the wiccan era, 8000-4000 BCE.
Looking at the bone middens, they inventoried the species which were 
present in 8000 BCE, and find they are all still there in 4000 BCE.
I dont know of any other advanced culture which existed in a homeland 
anywhere near as long that didnt drive some species to extinction.

The latest data I saw suggests that the saber tooth disappeared before 
man moved into that habitat.

>>>Std's have been with mankind for a
>>>very long time...longer than tantra.  Do you really believe
>>> that syphillus was brought to India by the British?  That's pure
>>> crap.
I didnt say that. Dont believe it. They have found syphlitic lesions
on even neolithic bones in Euroe. *But*- The DNA of syphilis reveals that
when the Spaniards brought their strain, it merged with the Native 
American strain, and the hybrid produced the debilitating deadly disease 
we now see. There are references in graffitti in Pompei to what appears 
to be the clap. This is no biggie back when travel was so difficult, the 
contagious period of it so short, that travelers either got over it, or 
died before they arrived at a new town to pass it on.

Syphilitic lesions have been found in ancient wiccan remains, but it was 
a rare condition. Which figures if the culture is run by witches, who 
would have known what a syphlitic lesion looked like, and without the 
prudery of modern people, the client had no hesitation in showing his 
condition to the witch. However, the ancient strain was not so serious.

>>>Tantra is never mentioned, even in a literate culture like
>>> India,
A *patriarchic* literate culture which went thru periods of prudery
the same as Europe has done.

> 
>>>before the 2 century AD.  Tantric ritual may be ASSUMED to
>>>predate this in some form, but there is no record of it
The earliest which I know of, is a joined couple depicted on a cave
wall, 20-30kya. It aint the missionary position, nor dog style. One of 
the tantric positions has the male laying on the floor with his spine in 
the plane of the earth, while the female sits astride him with her 
vertibrae vertical, for the proper alignment to the heavens. this is 
what is on the wall. It aint porn or graffiti because of the tremendous 
effort needed to carve the rock so deeply.

Then too, the anthro reports are full of native sacred sex; is that 
Tantra? if not, why not? And if it existed in the stone age cultures 
which survived into the 20th century, why would you think it was not 
used by the ancient native cultures of Europe. Other than racism.?

>>> if we go on what we DON'T find, then we are free to make up all
>>>kinds of things, even spaceships.  We don't find them
You clipped. It is what you dont find, *that you do everywhere else*.

> Sorry DAY,  as much as this topic in general interest me, I just
> don't have the time to counter act your fringe science.  The fact
> that there were no ancient wiccans doesn't invalidate your
> religion...remember not to put your religion in history, or like
> Julian said, it will fade away.
> Bye.
Ah, well, it's been fun.