THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.satanism,alt.pagan,alt.pagan.magick
From: lorax666 
Subject: Religious Diversity and Respect (was Satanism ...)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:38:16 GMT

50021223 VII Happy Kaos Day! blessed beast, Psyche! :>

"Cloudrunner Fae Sprite" :
>>> how exactly does satanism fit in with the philosophies
>>> of most of the pagan religions of the world, eclectic
>>> or not?

lorax666: 
>> it's the clear projection of countless Christians upon the
>> non-Christian/non-Jewish/non-Muslim (pagan) religious,
>> their causes and gods in service to the Force of Evil.
>> 
>> that said, those who *identify* with the term 'Satanist'
>> espouse philosophies which are individualist, anti-
>> establishment, and to a degree in conformance to a good
>> number of "Pagan" virtues. as with Neopagans, diversity
>> is the watch-word.
>>
>>> The very use of the word denotes a belief in the
>>> christian god, and his subordinates.
>> 
>> false. it may also denote opposition to the religion which
>> identifies "Satan" (lit. "adversary") as its bug-a-boo.
>> compare "atheism" and "anarchism" (which, interestingly,
>> a number of Satanists also enjoy indulging).

Psyche :
> Interesting.  How do you mean?

usage of words may not be literal in essence. identification
with the adversary of any social system (*regardless* of what
it is that the social system defines as that adversary) might
just be a way of saying "I'm aligned with what opposes you.
Your enemies are my friends *because* they oppose you." we may
have some of the *same* problems with their actual adversary, 
but our identification clearly indicates our role with respect 
to the social system that is locked into the dogmas and lingo.
we might also be very immature kids testing out new kinds of
identifications, stepping outside our parents' circles.

>> Neopaganism? I thought we tolerated a VARIETY of beliefs,
>> even silly ones.
>
> All hail Eris!

indeed. Discordian, Erisian, Chaotik notions have always seemed
to me the effective theme of Neopagan diversity. it shows that
we don't give a *fuck* what you believe, only how what you DO 
affects us and those we love.

our STRENGTH is that we can accept all manner of religious in 
our midst, whether Zoroastrian, Christian, Buddhist, Neopagan, 
or some uncategorizable weirdo. not out to convert the rest to 
our beliefs because we are not convinced that what we do is
capital R Right for anyone but ourselves, it doesn't matter if
somebody wants to worship Jesus and Mary, Satan and Mrs. Satan,
or some ancient cannibalistic demon god. how that plays out in
their LIVES (how they behave toward us and ours) is what 
matters more, no matter what they may say they believe in.

pinning down whether something does or does not "exist" is 
completely and utterly IRRELEVANT to Neopagans that I admire,
because we interact with whom we love and are respectful of
those spirits, gods, demons, whatever, to which others may
pay tribute, establishing our relation to them as we are able.

therefore to say "Satan doesn't exist" is as disrespectful of
Satanists as it would be for a Christian or a Muslim to tell
the Neopagan that gods like Cernunnos or Cerridwen are *really*
djinns, or fronts for their Cosmic Bad Guy. it's none of our
business as long as they aren't requiring that we be converted 
to their beliefs or shoving their practices down our throats. 

the time and place determines the focus (at a Neopagan rite we 
can expect that traditional gods will be the focus of worship, 
just as at a Christian rite we can expect traditional Christian 
gods will be (not their adversaries), and Satanist rites may or 
may not contain some kind of veneration or worship of something 
that they call 'Satan' (what that may be could be unexpected). 

it's not my place in public, outside the confines of my own
preferred religious playground, to tell someone what's *real*
about their gods or demons. that's just taking the BAD MANNERS
we may have learned from our previous religious experience 
and spewing it upon the faces of our potential allies. it's
far more respectful to sincerely ask questions as we may be
interested, withdrawing where our attention wanes. 

>>> however if your are a satanist, then this is the very
>>> being that you subjugate yourself to and worship.
>> 
>> that's the story of the Christians, yes. to be honest,
>> I've seldom heard of people who wished to worship the
>> Christian demon Satan for any length of time. it does
>> not seem to satisfy. most Satanists seem to either
>> focus on some more satisfactory god or become atheist.
>
> Aye, the majority of Satanists I've conversed with either
> claim atheism or belief in themselves as God/dess.

I've been trying to understand more completely what Satanists
and others (demonolaters, for example) might mean by "worship
of myself as (a) God", what that includes, and how they learned
what these words mean and how these practices will be pursued.
if you've any insight into this, I'd appreciate your feedback,
as well as any who may be reading our thread. thanks!

blessed beast!

lorax666
 nagasiva@luckymojo.com