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To: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.all-worlds,alt.religion.wicca,alt.pagan,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna,alt.satanism,alt.fan.satan,alt.mythology
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (lorax666)
Subject: Neopagan God (was paganism: question about the male half)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:08:49 GMT

50000225 IVom Hail Cernunnos! Hail Pan! Hail Saturn! Hail Satan!

Roxanne Korpal :
> ...suddenly wondered "what about the guys?" I endure the normal amount of 
> teasing from my atheistic and Xtian friends when they notice my 
> preoccupation with female spirituality and paganism in general. 
> Everything I've read seems to be geared towards opening up spirituality 
> in the direction of the woman, trying to make up for hundreds and 
> thousands of years in which women suffered neglect and inferiority 
> complexes due to society and intolerance.

and it isn't just about "non-pagan" religions. there were Romans 
and other non-Christians, even some old European religious wholly 
dedicated to male deities, for example. I'd describe the concentration
on goddess-religion as a reaction to Christian domination. one might
say that the Latin American Catholic obsession with Maria is a
similar reaction.

> Anyways.. Women personify the goddess, correct? (yeah I know that was 
> a bad way to put it, so help is requested) The Goddess represents the 
> female half of the Divine. 

there are many ways to describe the relationship between gods and
human beings. in the Neopagan world these are covered over based on
"inclusivity" (we don't get on anybody's case merely because they
see the gods in some different way, generally). one way would be
to identify the gods as representations, another that human 
beings are fragments or aspects of gods. both are legitimate.

it should also be mentioned that not all Neopagans believe in 
"the Goddess", a conglomerate entity on par with "the God" of
Judeochristian religious tradition. pantheons are not unknown,
with a variety of distinct goddesses and no hierarchy (or 
Creation) necessary.

> And the God represents the male half of the Divine. Sometimes 
> people are so caught up in the Female mysteries, the Goddess, 
> the Triple Goddess, the Dianic and so on theologies in which 
> the ruling or major focus is a female-guised divinity..

isn't the variety beautiful? I really like that so many different
types of religion are contained within Wiccan and the greater 
Neopagan groups and individuals.

> what do the guys have? The Goddess represents maiden, mother and 
> crone. 

this is a simplistic assessment of goddesses, if one is attempting
to summarize or encapsulate them to a single Queen. this has been
pointed out many times I'm sure, but the Triple-Goddess characteri-
zation seems to apply to certain Wiccans' ideas more than either
anthropological or general religious evidence would support. Kali
and other goddesses associated with warfare/defense as well as 
the less male-oriented (virgin/mother/crone) facets of gods are
exceptions to this Triple-Goddess composite. in other words, the
Triple-Goddess does not appear to be universal, despite the best
wishes of some Neopagans. tri-partate gods (male and female) DO
appear to be popular amongst the Indo-European cultures (celts,
dravidians). 

> What does the God represent for men? 

this issue is one with which I wrestled while studying with some
Gardnerians. I have always loved the pentacle shape (as well as
other geometric symbols) and so focussed on that indicative of
a potential "hidden" cosmology. accepting the Wiccan Triple-
Goddess as 'three points of the pentagram', I interpreted writers
like Starhawk ("Spiral Dance") and other Neopagans to be implying
essentially *2* facets of the God (Light/Dark), cycling through
deaths and rebirths (in the Womb and Tomb of the Goddess) and
possibly struggling or competing with one another for supremacy 
as consorts (in a way similar to how animals compete with one
another for survival as part of the Gaian environ).

the Sun King is rather well-known amongst Neopagans; his form as
the May King, Arthur, Apollo, Jesus, Sol, Horus, and the norse
Balder all present to the worshipper an admirable role-model of
the Truth-Seeker or Truth-Holder, the valiant Knight and Hero,
the vibrant defender of life and love in the Waking World (Day).

the Winter King is, as far as I am concerned, often misunderstood
by Neopagans and reviled in some of his manifestations; his form
as the Dark Knight, Mordred, Typhon, Satan, Saturn, Set, and the
norse Loki all present to the worshipper a struggling adversary,
the Underdog Scallywag or Misunderstood Hero, the suspected Villain
and Anti-Hero, the assaulter of the unjust oppressor, when the
Sun King has extended his power and influence beyond its rightful
realm.

these two are twin sons of the same Goddess, the former the child
who signals the Maiden's transition to Motherhood, the latter the 
one who comes to the Mother during Cronehood, eventually resecuring 
Her virginity (purity, innocence) at his vanquishing by the Sun 
King during the latter's post-solsticial recovery (at Bridhe/Brigit).

whereas the Goddess changes but remains the same person, the God
remains the same (dual) but changes persons throughout the year.
the pentacle point-up displays the mysteries of the Goddess in
all Her glory, that of the pentacle point-down indicates the
Horned One's mysteries of darkness and challenge -- He it is who
is often portrayed as the Guardian of the Threshhold, the Keeper
of the Mysteries which only the elite (initiated) shall know.

from this it should be obvious that I consider some forms of
Satanism to be completely compatible with Neopagan values and
worship. as I see it, Neopagan ways can ABSOLUTELY integrate 
the world's gods, including Jewish, Christian, and Muslim
Cosmocrators. Oberon Zell and friends have created some very
lovely "tracts" that make it easier to see how this type of 
integration can be accepted by the Neopagan (as well as the
Christian!) since these gods can be seen to have created their 
worshippers as a separate (genetic?) tribe and should 
therefore be regarded as specific instances of Creators or 
'Gods'). 

how this applies to what I think of your question about how 
the God is seen should now be clearer. I think that cults of
the God are much more likely to venture out into fanatical
sub-cults on their own (whether Light- or Dark-centered in
their focus), splitting from the other religious who are of
essentially the same culture. this can be seen alike in the
cults of India surrounding the gods like Siva and Visnu. this 
need not separate them for US, however. to the gods and to
their worshippers this may be a very important aspect of who
they are (compare with stereotypical Son-Pioneer cultural
motifs which forms a kind of flagrant denial of Freudian
Oedipus Complex notions).

for this reason I think it is extremely important that a
place be LEFT for all deities and their worshippers who wish
to become a part of the Neopagan deity-family. exclusion
based solely on tribal identity or the arrogance and
antagonism of a certain segment of a god's worshippers
should not deter us from sticking to more inclusive, what
some would call 'feminine' virtues of community, love, and
integrity despite the rougher edges of heroic splitters.

 
> Women are being taught to depends upon their intuition and 
> the cycles of their bodies, which so closely resemble and 
> seem to follow the natural rhythms of Gaia 
> What about the men? They are, ideally, followers of the God. 
> The God is the Goddess's consort, and represents the sun and 
> strength and the hunt. Is this what the men of our generation 
> have to focus upon? 

male aspirations are typically more esoteric, intellectual,
and dominating. I enjoy seeing the Goddess/God pair as a kind
of Yin/Yang (Chinese), incorporating ALL aspects of existence,
inclusive of the Goddess' generosity and cooperativeness and
the God's struggle and stubborn acquisitiveness. maturity and
insight inform the worshipper as to the value of each of these
characteristics to integrate so as to maintain an equilibrium.

> Women focus upon the Goddess and gracefully accepting the natural 
> wisdom and right that we have as maiden mother and crone. 

this stereotype of the accepting woman is popular in Judeochristian
and some Neopagan culture. there is also something similar promoted
of the accepting man, though it seems less common.

> The men are the child, born of the spring, playful.. and grow to 
> become strong and powerful, hunters, relying upon their physcal 
> senses..  Almost, I worded it my journal earlier as a "physical 
> hedonism"

I'd also mention that these are not biologically hard-wired, from
what we can tell. cultural prevalences are partially genetic and
partically nurtured. some women, for example, do not conform to
the stay-at-home-while-the-male-hunter-goes-for-food ideals and
some men are more of the stay-at-home-and-nurture-the-kids
temperament. exceptions are important to make clear in any
application of a mythological story to human conditions.

> ...Balance. I need balance. The male to balance the female. 
> The two essential mysteries to be, together, the source of 
> all magic and all creation...

as told by Neopagans, these essential mysteries are not always
complete. they, like G-rated movies, may not contain all the
difficult material that is truly a part of life as human beings.
part of the Neopagan challenge is to discern where these stories
do and do not apply to our lives. many of them come from
cultures very far from our own, may have tried to imply something
about the gods which was not actually present in humanity, and
in some cases appears to be alien to our species (e.g. many Indian
gods are depicted with many limbs giving them a very alien look).

it is the challenge to those who delve the mystery of the God to
look deeply into His nature, to come to a better understanding
of this very important being (or composite) and reflect this
back to others of our religious culture. one such reflection I
found inspiring was contained in "The Dark God", a book in which
the author seeks to reconcile his experiences in a Turkish prison 
with his essentially Neopagan religious conceptions. delightful.

this is one of the reasons that I am proud to shout:

blessed beast!
nagasiva@luckymojo.com (lorax666)
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