THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.thelema
From: jake 
Subject: Re: Modern Gnostics
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:53:23 +0100

In article <39455A94.E5F8D308@home.com>, Alchemy Works
 writes

Dear Spagyrix,

(love the handle BTW)

>The difference, though, lies in the fact that the Babylonians were not a
>minority culture living in a Jewish society.  Whatever claims he made
>about Jews teaching the Babylonians had no impact on any real
>Babylonians--and there were no Babylonians around to tell him he was
>full of it, either.

right, though of course we aren't living in a Hermetic culture either.
But I do take the point that Kabbalah is very worthy of respect in it's
own right. 

>> I agree that many folks using 'Qabalah' have only vague notions about
>> 'Kabbalah'. OTOH much of modern occultism is superficial and
>> historically laughable - there is not a great deal I can do to remedy
>> that other than argue for self education.
>
>I am glad someone else sees this.  I argued precisely this point in
>another forum recently and was told that Jews simply had ripped Kabbalah
>off from other cultures and knew nothing about what it 'really' was
>(just as we Jews cannot 'really' interpret the Hebrew Bible--only Xtians
>can read the truth that is hidden there).
>
grud on a greenie! That is appalling - I have no particular axe to grind
foe Hermetic Qabalah. My argument is with the narrowness of their
definition and the preference for C19th forms with a veneer of Jewish
forms that aren't really appropriate or essential (ie, the schema
doesn't depend on them, other models, alphabets and texts would serve
just as well and be less anachronistic). I spend more time reading
Scholem and Kaplan than Mathers.

OTOH many key elements of 'Qabalah' are at very least similar to
elements of the Gnostic tradition, which did have a wide cross cultural
background. There was of course strong Jewish participation in the
Gnostic movement, but this doesn't imply theft to me, rather creative
and adventurous spirituality that is worthy of emulation.

Hence my 'Modern Gnostics' title, several modern magical traditions are
essentially Gnostic movements. Particularly when they involve such
elements of 'Qabalah' as textual exegesis, gematria and such - which
were called Gnostic before *the term* Kabbalah was ever coined.

> 
>> >>>far better to call it what it is or derive a new name for it that
>> >>>will not so obviously and deceptively compete for religious
>> >>>attention fixated upon the terms derived from QBL.
>> 
>> there is no intended deception - the idea that any modern Qabalistic
>> school is an anti-semitic conspiracy is ludicrous. It hardly even
>> deserves an answer.
>
>No, there is no conspiracy, but there is plenty of antisemitism among a
>(to me) surprisingly large number people involved in hermetics.  I am
>glad that hara has brought up this point.  Very often the use of
>Kabbalah in hermetics looks to me exactly like co=optation and parallels
>how Xtians co-opted the Hebrew Bible, renaming it the Old (i.e.,
>superseded) Testament, destroying its context and vastly diminishing it
>by turning it into a mere prop for their belief system, a means for
>proving the veracity of their religion.  To me the treatment of Kabbalah
>is often very much the same.

well, I'm glad to say I am not familiar with that kind of prejudice, as
opposed to mere ignorance. I hope it is clear my argument doesn't
reflect that. To me Abulafia is a heroic role model exploring areas that
Hermetics have lost sight of - but could access without emulating the
Jewish model at all. 
>
>> >I think it unfortunately perpetuates a longstanding religious
>> >rivalry peculiar to Christianity -- jealousy, hatred and
>> >disrespect of Jews. a common usage which is anti-semitic is
>> >just as loathesome whether or not it is common usage, and
>> >should be changed so as to better reflect the principles of
>> >ethics and honour included or implied by the rival.

again though, I don't think the usage as such is anti-semitic - though
as your experience suggests it is extant among anti-semites. I am all
for an improved nomenclature, and wider appreciation of the historical
facts. I don't believe retention of the term, or some of the myths
surrounding it, are at all useful - and am starting to see that simply
widening the application is an insufficient solution.


>> >
>> how do you suggest we change a widespread generic term - compulsion?
>
>We should talk about it and make it known.

no argument there - appreciation of the origins of Kabbalah (and
Qabalah) would serve many purposes, mine not least of all. The evolution
of different terms may take time, but I suggest that 'Gnostic' is a
better term than Qabalistic in any case. Since this also takes into
account the common origins of Hermetic and Kabbalistic schools it may be
the clearest option.

ALways
JSK.

The Gnostic Alchemical Church  of Typhon-Christ
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/7770/

Ye Olde Goat's Shoppe
http://www.thelema.net/OldeGoat/


All events and institutions other than those 
portrayed in this Journal are fictitious