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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.occult
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (hara)
Subject: Re: English Qaballa and Racist Agendae (was re: Gematria and ...)
Date: 4 Jan 1999 11:50:48 -0800

49990104 IIIom 

shalom alechem, my kin.


Laszlo:
#> ...Magicians draw from many diverse sources...much as computer 
#> designers draw and build upon the work of previous computer 
#> designers. 

but do magicians cite those sources, identify them properly, and
pay sufficient tribute to these when they relay their creations,
inventions, and reiterations to others?  this is one of the more
important issues, as well as why they might NOT do this (such as
for purposes of anti-Judaism in the displacement of the religious
context in kabbalah to create their own Christian qabalah and/or
oppress Jewish culture/people).  the motivation may provide hints 
as to the fundamental nature of the rivalrous qabalistic text,
its value, etc.  this is the point that that catherine and Tim 
have been making all along (which I have acknowledged while also 
attempting to discover if a respectful and universalist QBL may 
be possible and what it should be called instead of what it has
been heretofore).


catherine yronwode :
# I think you missed the opening of this thread. It began with a
# discussion between [hara] and tim the occultist about [gematria]. 
# Tim opined that to understand kaballah, one must study Judaism 
# and Jewish culture.  [hara] then asked why, since he had read 
# that the kaballah was not actually Jewish. 

I would rephrase this assessment (metadiscussion but possibly
relevant to getting to the core issues) as 'hara then asked
if Tim was sure, since there were various sources indicating
that there might be other "kinds" of qaballah, such as
Christian or Hermetic'.  I cited Scholem, whom we'd all agreed
was a reliable authority on the subject, as one who used the
phrase 'Christian Kabbalah'.  I then logically asked whether, 
if there is such a thing as 'Christian Kabbalah', kaballah
(by any spelling) could be considered _separately_ from
Judaism as a thing which transcends religious categories, or
if I'd missed some crucial element in Scholem's writing.


# [hara] then asserted that the kabbalah scholar Gershom 
# Scholem supported his view. 

no, I suggested that Scholem seemed to offer contradictory
expressions to what appeared to be overgeneralizations on
Tim's part.  Tim seemed to clarify his statement in a way
which was slightly less extreme, and we left it at that.
the ad hominem I omit as unworthy of response or re-
characterization.


# Tim then quited Scholem back at him, demonstrating that 
# Scholem did in fact believe the kaballah to be Jewish. 

Tim's quote indicated that Scholem's regard for occultists
is very poor, explaining that Scholem considers them to have an
"infinitesimal" understanding of kabbalah (by which he means
Jewish kabbalah, as he describes in the first paragraph in
his book _Kabbalah_). that is, Tim was trying to show that
authors like Levi and Crowley and the like were regarded as
poor sources on the subject of "Qabalah" (Tim's term) by the
source which I'd suggested was very knowledgeable about
Jewish kabbalah.  he then claimed that I was self-
contradictory, something which I denied on the basis that I
never claimed that Levi or Crowley had any sort of knowledge,
though they had written about something they called "qabalah".


# [hara] asked for "proof" that the kaballah was Jewish. 

I asked what sources indicated that what should be called
qabalah (by any name) was entirely Jewish.  When I was
pointed toward Scholem I produced text indicating that
there was such a thing as Christian Kabbalah.  the only
way that I could find to reconcile this was Tim/Bill's
suggestion (I think I'm sourcing this properly) that
Christianity was *also* Jewish ("on the mother's side")
and, ipso facto, Christian Kabbalah was also Jewish.  I
never responded to this because it seemed too extreme,
though entirely logical.




# ...I also postulated, in the form of a series of questions, 
# whether Crowley did not inadvertently contribute to the 
# ignorance of his students. 

unfortunately my response to this (very long, containing
quotes from Crowley's materials which indicates sourcing)
has been delayed or lost.  I will try to obtain a copy from
the Hollyfeld Archive and repost.


# In his own library [hara] conceded that [Scholem]'s book opened 
# with a statement that the kaballah is Jewish. 

not entirely true.  I said it seemed that he was defining
(and very well and clearly) what he meant by the term
'kabbalah'.  his usage of 'Christian' prior to it is still
very confusing to me.  other Jewish authors use similar
terms like "Christian Kabbalists" from page 22 of _The
Kabbala: An Introduction to Jewish Mysticism and Its
Secret Doctrine_, by Dr. Erich Bischoff, Weiser, 1993.

this is a text you had in your library which you showed
me this morning (wonderful, more clear and explanatory
than any other source I've read on Jewish kabbalah and
certainly more clear than anything nonJewish I've read 
that may use the term 'qabalah to describe itself).


# In usenet, he asks me to "prove" this. 

actually I have asked for an explanation for the usage I have
provided in quote, and I have asked for support for what 
seemed to me, in my admitted ignorance, overstatement.  

peace be with you,

hara
-- 
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); cc me replies;
http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html