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To: alt.magick From: mefistof13@aol.comnospam (Mephistopheles) Subject: Re: Pagan Kabbalah Fantasies (was Pagan Kabbalah) Date: 07 Dec 2001 01:05:28 GMT Hi Tyagi, I won't presume to answer for Gnome, but to the points where I am quoted. >"a pagan Kabbalah" is meaningless, because as far as I know >the sociocultural oral tradition cannot be shown to have >preceded Jewish mystics In terms of the "Receipt" and its form, I quite agree. But as I maintain that the "Receipt" is based in large part on earlier Pagan emanationist, this can certainly be shown to predate Kabbalah. (emanationism) >this is merely conceptual and hardly central. That depends on whether one is theist or deist. Being Deist, the concept is more central to me. To me it is central, anyway; you may differ, and if so, I look forward to your thoughts on that. >how does one determine where "the root of the Kabbalistic system" >lies? is it conceptual? practical? social? symbolic? theological? Conceptual, certainly; practical, doubtful except for a few; social, not at all, outside the odd microcosm; symbolic, absolutely; theological is where the Jewish students of Kabbalah get into the most trouble with their peers, rather to my amusement. >is Luria primary in Kabbalism or is it just the obsession of >Hermetic mages? Luria is primary in modern Jewish Kabbalah, yes. His was an important historical stage in its development. Indeed, for the Jewish Kabbalist, it is probably its golden age. It is Hermetic only inasfar as it received influence from the coeval Hermetics; Luria did not deal with Hermetic Kabbalah at all, to my knowledge, although some of the symbolism creeps in. For that matter, there was Christian symbolism that crept into mainstream Judaism at that time, e.g., Yahrzeit candles and esoteric rather than maimonidean messianism. >then why does Scholem slam Hermetic "qabalah" as largely >unworthy of attention and attribute so little value to it? We mustn't forget the third system: Christian Kabbalah. The early Christian Kabbalists, Bruno et al., began to study it as part of a plan to convert Jews to Christianity; they wound up converting themselves to Hermeticism instead, in my view. Scholem was painfully aware that non-Jewish study of Kabbalah begins with the sin of proselytism. I don't think he addresses Hermetic Kabbalah at all, just Christian, as far as non-Jewish systems go. The Christian Kabbalah is full of large errors based entirely on imperfect Hebrew. Inserting a He and Shin between YH and WH are a good example. I am not unsympathetic with his viewpoint--from under the boot, the entire out-group looks the same. But on another level, Scholem's interest in it is more theological than conceptual, symbolic, etc., I think. He took even its conceptual aspects as Jewish, without considering pagan emanationism at all. That is fine by me, mind you; as Jewish Kabbalah is intensely torah-centric, particularly by Luria's time; hence of limited usefulness or interest to me. It is entirely possible to pick up the pieces of a pagan emanationist system, even a Gnostic (large "G") one, and develop it for modern intellectual use. But nobody does this--as, indeed, why should one? The Jewish Kabbalah is richly developed, and to go after Plotinus and to rebuild it is like building a new road when a good freeway already exists. I have no problem with letting new people use the same road, as long as they acknowledge the builders of it--who, in the case of Kabbalah, were entirely Jewish. Thus, I do not argue that the Jewish Kabbalah is Pagan in origin; but rather, that it has some Pagan roots, and that it both took and gave with them. Most importantly, I argue that as a system of mysticism and formal emanationist thinking, it is entirely appropriate that the non-Jew study it. Regards, --M ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum--Lucretius
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