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TOP | RELIGION | JUDAISM | KABBALAH | NEO KABBALAH

Pagan Kabbalah

To: alt.magick
From: catherine yronwode 
Subject: Re: Pagan Kabbalah
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:14:47 GMT

Gnome d Plume wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:42:47 GMT, Rick  wrote:
> 
> > What value, do you consider, is there in adopting the 
> > correspondences and symbolism of foreign cultures and 
> > long-since-past eras?
> 
> it is better to anchor yourself in a system that draws
> from ancient archetypes and symbols that have been perfected by your
> culture through the ages than to merely swallow your own psychic
> saliva, with all the personal errors, omissions and distortions that
> might entail. 

Then, pleae note, you are addressing a roomful of people here in
alt.magick who (with a few exceptions, such as the Asians among us) come
from European and European-American sucltures which "through the ages"
have been primarily Jewish and Christian. 

So why tell these people -- including the many Jews here -- that you
will "liberate" them from their "parochial" cultural baggage and
"rectify" the Jewish Kabbalah into something pagan? 

Don't you see that paganism, and particularly the Assyro-Babylonian
religion which you endorse, represents a cultural symbol-system about
which most contemporary Jewish and Christian Americans know nothing and
to which they have no "ancient" ties?

There is an arrogance here, Poke, that disturbs me. Not only are you
running farther with the "Assyrian roots" theme than is justified by the
archaeological and textual evidence, you are disrespecting (as hi has
been pointing out) the actual rabbinical sources of the kabbalah you
claim to be "rectifying." 

To "rectify" means to remove an error or to correct. As a Jew, i am very
tired of hearing that my culture's mystical tradition needs "correction"
by an outsider, no matter how erudite.

I am going to propose an analogy here that may make sense to you:

We all know that the trumnpet, the saxophone, and the clarinet were
European band instruments, originating in Europe, by Europeans, and
designed for Europeans to play their culturally stylized music -- and we
all know that jazz music originated in the African-American community.
Anyone who claimed that jazz "originated in Europe" would be laughed at.
Anyone who claimed that jazz needs to be "rectified" by European
performers would be laughed at. 

Likewise, with the kabbalah: Sacred tree imagery can be found throughout
the ancient Middle East and numerical-linguistic association schemes of
various sorts date back to the invention of alphabetic language -- but
despite this, the kaballah is Jewish. It was created and developed by
Jewish rabbis to shed light upon the mysteries of the Jewish religion.
To claim otherwise is laughable. To claim that the kabbalh requires
"recrification" by non-Jews is laughable. 

The Jewish big band leader Artie Shaw played pretty fancy jazz clarinet
-- but he stood in the same relationship to the great African-American
New Orleans jazz clarinetist George Lewis that you do to Rabbi Isaac
Luria: an embellisher, a follower, an exponent, and an excellent
developer -- of somebody else's riffs. At least he had the good grace to
admit it. 

Now, as to the WORD kabbalah, i think this is where a great deal of
antagonism arises. 

This name -- KABBALAH -- is something that the non-Jews want very badly
to possess. In my life and through my reading, i have seen dozens of
non-Jews create all manner of non-Jewish numero-linguistic
correspondence schemes and mystical emanation systems in the service of
all manner of non-Jewish gods -- but they all insisted on using the word
KABBALAH to describe what they did. 

Why do you think that is? What is it about the word KABBALAH that is so
valuable? 

Note also that now we see how angry Hindus are becomming at the way that
contemporary non-Hindus create all manner of non-Hindu sex-religion
schemes and chakra systems in the service of all manner of non-Hindu
gods -- but they all insist on using the word TANTRA YOGA to describe
what they do.

Why do you think that is? What is it about the word TANTRA that is so
valuable? 

I submit that a great deal of what is going on with the "pagan kabbalah"
and "cChristian kabbalah" and so forth is not and has always been a
struggle over brand name recognition. In support of this belief, i
submit that you must have noticed by now that people get mad at you for
promoting your mystical system under the same name their culture has
used to describe their own mystical system for centuries. 

Take a tip from Artie Shaw. He called what he did BIG BAND MUSIC, not
jazz. He knew something you would do well to learn. 

Give it another name, Poke. Tell your students, truthfully, that in
creating your system, you draw from the kabbalah and from pagan sources
-- but leave off the bit about Judaism being a "parochial" religion and
leave off the part about "rectifying" Jewish mysticism as if it were
inferior or errant, and leave off using the word kabbalah ... and pass
in peace. 

cat yronwode 

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice -- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

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Gnome d Plume wrote:
> 
> As Bartles & James used to say: "Thanks for your support!"
> But we still have some roiled waters to smooth with oil. As I have
> explained to Nag and Cat, 

"Nag"? Shall we call you "Garden Statue," then, or "Carole"? C'mon --
that Nag thing was started by some folks who wanted to make fun of
nagasiva's name -- how can you oil the roil if you use schoolyard-meanie
names like that? Siva (or tyagi, as many still call him) is his usenet
name and his street name. 

> I am a Pagan. I am not anti-Semitic but I am
> respectfully, and philosophically anti-Monotheistic; 

Fine enough. No argument there. Room for all. Land of the Free. 

> that includes Christianity, Islam and Judaism. 

And Atenism, too, no doubt. 

> Do I believe in "God"? Probably 
> more deeply and profoundly than some of the fundamentalists of all 
> three monotheistic religions--but I do not believe that a divine 
> messenger, prophet or Son of God, has any special right to declare 
> Jihads, Crusades, pogroms, witch hunts, and blue laws in the Name of 
> a Deity so far beyond our understanding that to declare that one 
> religion, one man (or woman for that matter) can dictate the most 
> private and personal aspects of our lives--and of our search for 
> spiritual understanding (which seems to be what we are here for) is 
> to me an anathema.

I agree with all that. 

>      However, as children we are raised in these "Faiths" 

What do you mean, "we," white man?

I was raised by ATHEISTS WHO POSED AS AGNOSTICS during my childhood so
as to not unduly influence my choices but to allow me to come to my own
conclusions about religion and philosophy. Yes, this is true. Strange,
but true. 

And you seem to think that siva was "beaten by the stick" of
Christianity (thus causing him to become a Satanist in rebellion), but
his mother is totally anti-church and he never regularly attended any
church. The family did celebrate the popular Pagan-cum-Christian
holidays, however, such as Yule-Christmas and Samhain-Halloween. 

> and we all identify with them in varying degrees. 

A lot less than you think!

> When we were in the process of
> creating our synthesis of kabbalah and modern Goddess-oriented
> Paganism (a task more challenging than we ever imagined) we ran into
> certain philosophical and cultural problems. I recall the time in
> middle 70s when we invited several orthodox Jewish people (at their
> request) to attend a Seasonal Ceremony. We patiently explained our
> Pagan position and our use of the kabbalah, and they seemed to
> understand------but when our deacon vibrated YHVH in the opening
> Pentagram Ritual, the whole orthodox contingent got up and walked 
> out.
>       Do I blame them? Of course not---but it became one more good
> reason to retire YHVH from our rites. 

 I understand. It would have been offensive to them, of course. 

> To Golden Dawners and non-Jewish
> students of kabbalah that conception means a Universal God of all
> people, and favoring none, but to some Jewish folks it means the God
> of The Chosen People. The egragore is too mixed and contradictory. 
> It has too much emotional loading--and, in my opinion, it is not
> necessary to a Pagan kabbalah. 

I submit again that by removing the Jewish God from the kabbalah, you no
longer have a "kabbalah" -- a Hebrew oral tradition of mysticism. You
have a pagan emanation scheme. I think it needs a new and more accurate
name than "kabbalah." 

> We realized that the basic  formula of
> creation is the Three Mother Letters and Earth. YHVH is used in the
> *Sepher Yetzirah* Cube of Space as a "Seal" containing the dynamic 
> of creation (check it out). This doesn't make YHVH any less 
> important, but it does make it (IMO) philosophically replaceable.

 That is fine -- but then you do not have the kabbalah. And there is
nothing wrong with what you DO have -- just give it another name. 

>    YHVH has some very profound kabbalistic correspondences and I do
> not mean to degrade the Great Formula---but, out of respect for our
> Jewish brothers and sisters, and following our own lights, we have,
> quite properly I believe, given it up. So if an orthodox Jew  wanted
> to say that we don't have a "real" kabbalah (in the Jewish sense) he
> is not only welcome to, I encourage him to feel that way---as long 
> as he doesn't get arrogant and nasty about it.

I am not an orthodox Jew -- just a culturally assimilated Jew -- but
even i find it off-putting. 

I am not saying this to get your goat (or your gaotu), Poke -- i am
simply telling it as i feel it. 

According to my lights, the kabbalah, for better or for worse, is a
Jewish mystical tradition. Build on it, distort it, bend it, skew it,
and do whatever you wish -- and then rename it. Get your own brand name.
If you do not, you are committing the moral equiavalent of trademark
violation -- deliberately creating a similar-looking product with a name
so similar to the original that it will confuse and mislead the public. 

You (and i, and siva) have at one time or another called the various
Westernized forms of sex magic  and sex mysticism we practice "tantra"
-- and all of us have given that up, in part due top greater learning on
our parts, in part due to protests from Hindus who ask very politiely if
we could stop doing that. And it makes sense. 

>       We borrowed the kabbalah, but we did not steal Jehovah.

Great. Good for you. As described in the Bible, JHVH is not my fave-rave
deity either, frankly. I particularly despise the thinking behind his
killing of the Egyptian first-born children. After my first child dioed,
in 1970, i realized i would never bow down to a baby-killer god again.
But i am still a Jew, like it or not. And i still think the kabbalh is
Jewish. 

>      Frankly, I think we deserve some credit for this--and some 
> Jewish support. We are no longer eating ham and bagel sandwiches. 
> You got the bagels, and we got the ham! *******

Then take the name kabbalah out of it and go forth and prosper! 

>       Thanks again, and happy Holy Season!

And happy Holy Days to you too, pal! 

cat yronwode

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Gnome d Plume wrote:
> 
> "Asiya" wrote:
> 
> >"hara"  wrote 
> >>
> >> "Asiya" :
>
> >> > ...Crowley's personal flaws and our feelings regarding them
> >> > shouldn't affect our judgment of his magickal success
> >>
> >> unless his magick was supposed to remove or 'heal' those flaws, 
> >> in which case we can assess the man as having been a magical 
> >> failure. regardless of our feelings about any of it, the logical 
> >> is compelling.
> >
> > Hmmm...did Crowley ever claim to have completely removed his 
> > flaws? What was he like his last year alive? I haven't read a 
> > whole lot about his personal life and views, because I get 
> > irritated when I do.  :)

I do not think it is relevant to judge a person's spiritual depth by
their "last year alive" -- often that year is spent in sickness, and, in
Crowley's case, it was. I would rather assess (not judge -- assess) the
congruence between what a teacher advocates and practices by a larger
sampling, from the prime of life, over the course of a couple of
decades, after the beginning of the person's taking on the role of an
advisor or teacher or having procliamed him or herself to have achieved
some form of spiritual mastery. 

Crowley was born in 1875 and took on the role of a spiritual authority
sometime before World War One. I would therefor assess the congruity of
his behaviour with the system of mysticism he propounded from that point
onward. 

Crowley details quite a bit of what he was doing, thinking, feeling, and
achieving during this period in his book "The Confessions of Aleiester
Crowley." I think that you might do well to simply buy or borrow a copy
and read it. If you are like me you will find in it a frank and
self-"confessed" record of racial and sexual prejudice; inconsideration
toward others; dislike of children; physical violence toward people of
other races or those perceived as inferiors, dependents, or students;
substance abuse; desertion of friends and colleagues under
life-threatening circumstances (resulting in their deaths); gender-based
prejudice againainst woemn; failure to properly credit the (female)
co-writers and editors of his many books; and much more that would not
be generally considered "spiritual" in nature. You will also see much
intellectual prowess, some inspired writing, a great deal of wit, a lot
of learning, and a remarkable freeness in admitting failure at some
points coupled with a disturbing lask of introspection and
self-defensiveness at other points. 

As Crowley makes clear in the "Confessions" and elswhere, he abandoned
his families, lover, and friends repeatedly and under the most grotesque
of circumstances. The abandonment of his first wife and their infant
child in China (where the child soon died) is the event i personally
find the most horrific, but other people have pointed with equal dismay
to his disgraceful abandonment of his climbing party in the Himalayas
and their deaths. In addition to this, he could not master his own drug
addictions. 

None of this has inspired me to think of the "Crowley Method of
Spiritual Attainment Through Magick" as notably successful: its
discoverer, leading proponent, and guiding light was a self-confessed
failure emotionally, spiritually, financially, and sexually. 

> >> > and the quality of his writings.
> >>
> >> with respect to Kabbalah (the subject of this thread),
> >
> > I was referring to Crowley's writings in general,  
> > responding to this:
> >
> > > "John B"  wrote:
> > Well, that's probably the most pathetic thing I've ever read.
> > The poor bastard... no wonder he had to pretend to have 
> > magical powers

I am not so harsh a judge, perhaps. I think he did "pretend" to
attainments he did not have, but i also think he was deluded (due to the
influence of drugs, proibably) and that he DID have some genuine magical
and mystical experiences -- that is, that in some cases, he was able to
produce the phenomena he sought to produce, whether they were subjective
(state-changes in consciousness) or objective (drawing money for his
student Victor Neuberg). 

> >> I'm unaware that
> >> there is evidence of such quality. I'd like to understand more 
> >> about what you think is valuable in his writings. I've asked the 
> >> same of Joseph above, and I'm curious what your standards and 
> >> sources of authority might be. thanks.

No one asked me -- but i will venture to again state that Crowley's 
writings on modern astrology were valuable and of high quality,
especially insofar as he very deftly established a coherent rationale
for the addition of the "new" palanets Neptune, Uranus, and Pluto, which
was an issue troubling many astrologers of the period. Some  people in
this newsgroup are unfamiliar with Crowley's astrological texts,
unfortunately, because he ghost-wrote the books for the then-popular
syndicated astrologer Evangeline Adams and they were published under her
name. However, i believe thet have recently been reprinted and with her
familys permission, proper credit has finally been assigned to Crowley.
 
> > I'm a Ceremonial magick newbie, ya know. I don't have "sources of
> > authority". His writings speak to me. Things that I've read by him 
> > and things that I've done based on his writings have created 
> > positive change in myself.

That's great, and nothing i am saying here is an atrempt to take that
away from you, Asiya. I too have been enriched by his writings -- but
not his writings on the kabbalah or the I Ching. For my understanding of
those topics, i have found much greater wisdom in turning to Jewish and
Chinese sources, respectively, In partcular Gershom Sholem on kabbalah
and Alfred Huang on the I Ching. 

> >> > They're two separate things.
> >>
> >> this seems somewhat unclear. apparently you were saying that his
> >> personal flaws and our feelings about them are or ought to be 
> >> separate from our judgment of his magical success (and especially 
> >> his 'magickal' success).
> >
> >Yes, that is what I meant.

Well, i have some trouble with making that "separation" in the case of a
spiritual leader. I mean, if a telephone repairman is a thief, he may
still be a good telephone repairman. But if a Chistian church minister
is a thief, i immediately discredit his ability to lead people
spiritually, because he is a hypocrite, having violated one of the basic
tents of the religion he purports to support and teach. Thius, insofar
as Crowley the mystical mage and "master" and "prophet" "herald" of a
new aeon is self-confessedly a hater of women and Jews and abandons his
fellow mountain climers to their deaths and abandons his wife and child
in the middle of China (!) -- well, i discredit his spiritual maturity
and thus his fitness to claim "adepthood" in mystical-magical matters.
As a Jew and a woman, i sure don't want to live in the new aeon which he
heralds and prophesies! Your mileage may vary. 

> Please do not let this tirade of nagasiva's confuse or upset you. 
> I will suggest that at this point in what he thinks is a 
> "discussion" it becomes obvious that he is insecure and emotional--
> as much of a "true believer" in his own strange way as fundamental 
> Christian arguing against a woman's right to have an abortion. 

This is an ad hominem attack on siva, not a defense of Crowley. As such
it is off-topic. (And incredibly rude.) 

> The underlying issue here is whether or not the study and practice 
> of Western Magick, as defined by Hermes, Iamblichus, Prophory, 
> Picatrix, Abbot Trithemius, Agrippa, Dee, Athinasius Kircher (whose 
> configuration of the Tree of Life most of us use!) Levi, Hockley, 
> Mackenzie, Westcott, Mathers, Yeats, Crowley, Dion Fortune, 
> Regardie, DuQuette, and to some lesser extent, yours truly, has any 
> right to employ a "kabbalah" in any form. 

The original claim you made was that you ("we" -- the Church of Hermetic
Sciences) had "rectified" the resumeably errant Jewish kabbalah. You
later apologized for that. I do not think that siva is -- and i know i
am not -- curtailing, questioning, ot denying your right to "employ a
'kabbalah' in any form." 

Rather, i suggested that since you have removed YHVH from your kabbalah,
and since you have substitut3ed the Phoenician alphabet for the Hebrew
alphabet (and then changed the number of letters in the Phoenician
alphabet to boot) that you might do well to also remove the word
"kabbalah" from your system. 

It is a fascinating system, Poke -- i do admire tis elegance. But it
isn't the kabbalah, anymore than Christianity is Judaism. It is de novo. 

I merely suggested that you use a new name -- and i did not contest you
when you refused to do so. 

So please, don't dramatise the issue. 

> This is tantamount to making an all-out attack on the Mormon 
> Church for daring to write a sequel to the Bible! (many such 
> attacks have been made BTW)

Minus the "all-out attack" -- which is all in your own mind and never
took place (and it is specious of you to equate gentle discourse in
usenet with the actual violence perpetrated against Mormons) -- this is
indeed the issue. And, for the record, i do not think that Mormonism is
Christianity any more than i think Chistianity is Judaism. The Latter
Day Saints broke away from Christianity. Mormonism might be consered
part of the Judeo-Islamic-Chrisian-Mormon complex of religions,
branching off from Christianity -- but to use biological terms,  i think
that Mormonism is a new "species" of religion.  And i think the
emanation scheme you have refined and which you teach is not kabbalah. 

> and after 500 years of using the "kabbalah" for purposes beyond its
> original scope and intent, as a commentary on the Torah, Hermetic
> magicians are now expected to give kabbalah (or Qbalah or Cabala, or
> Qubbalah) a new name? 

They are not expected to. But it would be respectful of them to do so,
in my opinion. Respect for the wishes of Jews is not something we see
much of, however. Still, we can make our wishes known, can we not? 

> -- And this on top of the Jewish community's virtual abandonment 
> of the tradition in the 17th and 18th centuries! This is 
> carrying "Political Correctness" to such ludicrous extremes
> that it not only insults a 500 year old esoteric tradition, it 
> insults our intelligence! 

Your claim of the abandonment of kabbalah in the Jewish community is
unusual and so far unsupported. The Jewish community is not monolithic.
Assimilated Jews in Germany and England may not have studied kabbalah
much during the era of their greatest attempts to assimilate and
disappear into European rationalist-scientific culture, but it was not
abandoned by all Jews. And, regardless of popularity trends, the
kabbalah remains a Jewish mystical tradition, not up for grabs by those
who would remove the name of the god it was designed to magnify, thoise
who would substitute for Herbrew an alphabet it was never designed to
work with, and those who would aim toward spiritual goals (such as your
own avowed "anti-monotheism") which patently subvert its original
purposes. 

I am not saying that what you teach is bad.

I am not saying that what you teach is wrong.

I am saying that what you teach is no longer the kabbalah. 

I believe that what you teach is a neo=pagan emmanation-system of great
interest to the magical community at large. I beleive you got your start
in it by studying the Christian and hermetic riffs on the Jewoish
kabbalah, and that you -- and they -- are not teaching the kabbalah, but
some new species of spiritual system, which deserves a new name all its
own. 

cat yronwode 

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Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races