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Fratribus Nigris

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.thelema,alt.mythology,talk.religion.misc,alt.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.magick.chaos,alt.philosophy.zen
From: (nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Fratribus Nigris
Date: 22 Nov 1995 13:26:36 -0800


|Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 18:45:02 GMT
|From: Nyk Cowham 

|>unification: Choronzon (333) + Shugal (333) => Beast (666).

|...he does the sum, but I am not sure how Shugal is meant to differ to 

Grant addresses that in his texts, as I remember.  Choronzon he ties to
a more dog-like guardian while Shugal he associates with the pig.  I found
this extremely funny, as the unity makes svinehundt (pigdog 666).

|or how they might 'complete' each other in the form of the Beast. 
|Perhaps you have some ideas in this respect?

I am as yet unclear on this myself.  Perhaps others more learned in the
Typhonian ways might instruct (or if you have discovered this in the mean
time, please divulge this information to me.  ;>

|>|Is the Supernal Triangle attained or by-passed when a 'dive into' the 
|>|Abyss is effected? 

|>The way I originally thought of it, it is attained.
|Always bearing in mind that the Exempt Adept is stripped of Attainments in
|preparation for the Jump/Dive, and that the Ordeal of the Abyss is somewhat 
|in the order of a Zen Satori experience in that attainment is gained my 

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by 'attainments' in the sense(s?)
you appear to be implying.  Could you elaborate upon your statement, and
then perhaps I will adjust my response.

|In Golden Dawn circles, at the time of Crowley, the crossing of the Abyss was
|a non-physical crossing and that a crossing could only be accomplished by an
|adept who has permanently shed the physical vehicle of incarnation. 

There is a predominant believe in the meaningfulness of the term 'soul' or
some other explanation for which 'shedding the physical vehicle' might be a
common objective?  I've met people who didn't seem to conform to those norms,
and yet they claimed to associate with 'Golden Dawn' tradition (perhaps only
as renegades?).

I've shown my regard for Hermetic mages of this sort within a particular
initiation ritual that I like to make public:

|Crowley refuted this, thus shifting the boundaries of the 'ultimate 
|experience' of physical consciousness states. 

He shifted them conceptually, yes, though whether that can be applied in
some way and whose analysis of this application will be of value remains 
to be seen.

|In the same way we could 
|say that the Veils of Negative Existance represent a conceptual 
|Ring-Pass-Not which are not beyond the bounds of the incarnated 
|magical attainment.

One can say anything.  Whether this is logical (which I think this is)
or convincing is not a given, however.  So far I don't see any reason
to presume such things as light-bodies and souls and whatnot, exist
except as figments of imagination.  Whether those figments have 
something to do with my experience is something I have not yet resolved 
and am loathe to enter into presumption without further observation.

|As regards Madyamika, Grant has some intriguing insights into the identity
|between the 'double negative' of Madyamika and AOSpare's concept of Neither-
|Neither - these may be found in _Outer Gateways_.

I have never heard Madyamika associated with a 'double negative'.  I have
heard of it in association with Nagarjuna, whose philosophy I have here-
tofore enjoyed immensely.  He was one of the founders of the Mahayana
tradition of Buddhism, founder of the Madhyamikaa, or Middle Path school,
to be precise.  His logical correlates appear to lead more toward 
X/-X/X+(-X)/-(X+(-X)) than a -(-X) per se, but I am not well-studied of 
the original texts, only translations and I understand some of them are 

The first I've heard that AOSpare has a 'neither-neither' concept.  Are
you sure this is not the Indian 'neti-neti'?  I'm not sure this constitutes
a 'double negative' either, if so, but it may well be tantric by my 

|_Liber THIShARB_ ...fall from the Tree altogether and attain the Towers 
|of the Black Brothers (though he typifies this as a failure to attain 
|the Grade). Grant makes much of this in his elaboration of the 'Dive'
|through the Abyss into the noumenal realm of the Tree of Death, which is
|catacombed by the Tunnels of Set.

Fascinating.  I read/absorbed/imagined something very similar in my
construction within a Multi-User Dimension (MUD) online, but don't
remember having read THIShARB.

|Agreed, but lets keep it simple and use a scaled down model ;')

I'm presuming the latter is the scaled-down, but substitute as you will.

|>	Jumping  = A -> X
|>	Diving   = A V Y

|>Now, what is X?  What is Y?  Does X = Y?  These are the questions which 
|>arise in me in response to the model we're developing.

|What is the 'V', btw?

'V' is directional pointing between A and Y, downward (dive).  What lies
below (downward; between A and X, whatever the rest may be) is quite
important to the comparison of these two.

|Very good! The question, indeed, which I am most concerned to explore is
|whether X = Y.

I doubt it.  You probably want to know if the potential endpoint V is the
same as the post-abysmal jump-point, X.

|>I think the typical
|>association in the Jumping model is X = Binah, though I feel that there is
|>room to doubt this.  It is interesting to think that countless magi may 
|>have mistaken Chokmah for Binah (aspects of the Supernal Unknown) and 
|>thus failed in some measure to achieve their objective.  

|Do you feel that the Abyss (and Da'ath) have a deep identity with Binah? I
|often conceive of the Abyss as the Chalice of Our Lady Babalon and therefore
|Chorozon is the Vampire who drains the 'blood of the martyrs'. In fact, I am
|increasingly forming the idea that the Supernals are merely 'personifications'
|of processes which occur *within* or *through* the Abyss - Which is why Da'ath
|is the False Crown, because it is only the Door (daleth) to the Hidden Sun,
|behind the Sun.

Reading that Gnosticism paper posted to news:alt.magick.tyagi recently has 
given me a new appreciation of some of the complexity of this theory.  Gnostic
speculation incorporates successions of existence-states, referred to by
topical mythotype when formalized within a religious context.  You are
pointing out a potential formula given such a succession-structure (and in
some degree overlap with tradition in pointing to the 'hidden sun' model)
(I like to refer to that as a luxocentric worldview).

|Hmmm. I thought you made a contrast between the Jump, wherein Chokmah is
|attained, and the Dive, where Binah is attained (or perhaps I have
|misunderstood the context in which this contrast was being made?).

Very interesting.  It was not my intent at all, no.  Originally I conceived
of both leading to Binah (likely as a numerical regression, 4-> 3), and yet
I'm unsure today that I would presume this.

|So in your model "A V Y" the V is the Qliphoth? 

That was something I may well have siezed from Grant's writings, yes, or
it may have merely seemed natural to me when I read it the first time  I'd
have to check my writings to know for sure. :>

|A bit like an LSD trip, I suppose, the quality of the experience depends very 
|much upon the state of mind of the 'experimenter' at the time of taking the 
|drug. If you take the drug wilst experiencing doubts or anxiety you can be
|fairly certain of having a disturbing or frightening experience.

I think this may be a valuable paradigm from which to approach most so-called
'initiatory experiences'.  I enjoy the thought of intentionally inducing fear-
reactions and horrific response simply through the set and setting.  This  is
probably the connection between the types of caves discovered in France
recently with archaeic artwork and the initiation rites for which they are 
thought to have been used.

|>|The Supernal Triangle is a false concept, 

|>Given this, 'what one does or is' beyond point A in the graphic above is
|>somewhat irrelevant.  The point B may or may not always remain constant,
|>for example.  It may depend entirely on the nature of the aspirant.

|Why talk about two different and distinct paths if one's actions beyond
|point A are 'irrelevant'? 

I'm not sure they are, but if one dives downward one is not necessarily
attempting to wind up in either of the uppermost poles.  To the contrary,
it may be a direct release of these concepts and their meanings that this
leap implies, and so rendering all our discussion useless except that which
discusses the commonly understood aspects of the formula (some might be
merely personal reflections on these same themes).

'Down' when defined within the confines of two level points does not normally
indicate to me a movement toward points A or X.  What lies next to that which 
I am locating (the Abyss) is only of secondary importance, and extensions 
beyond that liable to fantasy and fairly irrelevant given other options.

| seem to lose the foundation of your case for asserting a difference 
|between a 'Jump' and a 'Dive'; the difference becomes irrelevant, a mere 
|product of illusion below the Abyss, and therefore the difference is only 
|a qualitative difference. 

I see your point and acknowledge its possibility.  I am not sure that the
difference is only qualitative, though it is possible.  As I am not even
sure if I have experienced either, I would value input on all options.

|>|and the Ain Soph Aur an erroneous projection beyond the Abyss,

|>...Three Negative Veils accessible at any point on the Tree...
|>...[cyberspace] Tree of Life ...I placed them 'beyond Kether'.

|...'beyond Kether' ...emanationist model of the Creation. 

In that they preceded the origination of Kether, yes.

|I prefer ...beyond the Tree, i.e. below the level of the phenomenal world; 
|a sort of substratum, ...accessible at any point in the Tree. ...Abyss 
|(and Qliphoth) ...a specific gateway into the realm of non-being. 

Very interesting.

|Thus, a dive into the Abyss is a dive Below, into the noumenal realm 
|of non-being in the dark substratum of the unmanifest.

Ok, but to what do these things refer in the Tree of Life, or in some other
t/Tree?  The noumenal and the qliphoth, the phenomenal with the sephiroth?
How can there *be* anything before the Creation (the unmanifest) if we posit 
any judeochristian beliefs about it?  I am attempting to delineate the nature
of your relationship to Orthodox or Gnostic Christians.

|>|...insist that trying to conceptualize the 'other side'

I do think that conceptualization may lie below the Abysmal Gulf, however,
on the typical Tree of Life diagram.

|>...I'm attempting to refrain from taking any positions in this
|>discussion concerning the Supernals or indeed the Abyss.

|This sounds like a conclusion to defer judgement. 

Perhaps this what 'loss of attainments' means, in that given the breadth of
kaotik possibility exposed through the Mysteries, one cannot but abandon
the bleak wastelands of certainty and belief in the face of such beauteous
knowledge as is made possible through diligent discipline.

|...I think perhaps more direct experience is required before one can 
|explore the possibilities, and to see where one 'ends up', rather than 
|speculating upon the unknown.

Oh I would speculate on the unknown alright, to the detriment of all those
who vie for secrecy. ;>  There is every reason in the world to abandon the
sweet safety of rational knowledge and imagine vast and unexplored worlds
of more personal and peculiar variety than we may find within the texts to
which our authorities point.  This does nothing to erase the incredible
debt owed to the masters who came before us and whose works inspire our
studies and applications, and indeed it is of their spirit we declaim the
known and fabricate new truths.

Research the Liars directly at:

I am reminded of a war movie I saw a brief part of several years ago.
I don't recall the title of the movie, or the age (but I do recall
that Col. Potter, of M*A*S*H, was a sergeant).  Anyway, this Filipino
philosopher is observing:

  In America, statue of nude woman in park, very proper.  Picture of
  nude woman in bedroom, very improper.  Here , statue 
  of nude woman in park, very improper.  Nude woman in bedroom, very 
  proper.  Conclusion: pornography function of geography. (Warrl kyree Tale'sedrin): alt.magick.tyagi

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