THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.consciousness.mysticism
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: JMarshall: Abyss and Da'ath (was Re: The Key to Q.B.L.)
Date: 20 Dec 1997 14:09:54 -0800

[technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness]

[both from kabbalah-l@hollyfeld.org: "Jeff Marshall" ]

Peter L. Schuerman :
>And since there are so many people believing this, it is likely to be
>having the negative effects I described.  More reason to get rid of
>Da'ath.

I was going to address this in your response to me on Da'ath, but since you
invoked me as a source (

	http://www.infocomm.net/~jeff/magan/mag-term.html

"In addition there is an 11th, unmanifest sphere named Da'ath or
knowledge. Da'ath lies in the Abyss, which is why SVR, which focuses on
knowledge, focuses also on the Abyss." ) and this statement is so plain,
I'll address the issue here.

You seem to hold the view that much of religion is created to distance Man
from the Divine.  With that, I will agree with you.  Frankly, I have 
little use for religion (if interested, see

	http://www.infocomm.net/~jeff/magan/rel_mag.html ).  

Where I think we part ways is in the relationship of religion and the 
Qabalah and the Abyss.

I don't see the Qabalah as religious.  Rather, I see it as spiritual.
There's a difference.

I don't see the Abyss as a contrived thing to separate Man from the Divine.
Rather, I see it as part of an Alchemical process.  I see Man as one vast
Alchemical process as solve et coagula on the part of the Godhead.  We are
all "pieces" of the Godhead separated out for the Alchemical process.  Most
of us labor in the analysis process, which lies below the Abyss.  We begin
the synthesis process when we enter and then cross the Abyss.

I think this is also related to the whole issue of Ego.  I see many comments
in which we must "slay the ego" or somehow otherwise subdue it.  IMO, these
are off the mark.  Again, my view is related to the Alchemical process.  The
whole point of the process is to split the Godhead into many more or less
independant pieces that can all gain different perspectives and act as
co-creators (Agents of Creation).  The central presence of the Godhead is so
all consuming that these pieces would be intially subsummed right into the
Godhead without some form of veil to separate them.

I see the Ego as initially being a stone wall of sorts that separated the
piece of the Divine into a discreet individual and allows it to develop.  As
this piece develops, the need for the stone wall becomes less and the need
to experience other aspects of creation becomes greater.  Thus, the wall
becomes a membrane.  As we continue to grow spiritually, the wall becomes
increasingly permeable.

At the the Abyss, this membrane becomes almost completely permeable when we
cross it.  We then have evolved spiritually to the point where we don't need
the veil of the Abyss to allow us to develop.  We can begin to experience
creation in its totality and take our rightful place as Agents of Creation.

There is still the Triple Veil of Ain Soph Aur the separates us from total
immersion in the Godhead.  As long as we stay on this side of the Triple
Veil, the membrane, even though it is totally permeable at this point, still
separates us as a discreet entity.  Penetrating the Triple Veil *may*
complete the Alchemical process and reunite us with the Godhead, making us
more like of a drop in a vast ocean.

AOI
Jeff

>>  If it can be said that there is an ABYSS, it is above
>> the Tree--at the heart of the Divine, in that state Hermetic Kabbalah
>> calls the first veil of Negative Existence.  It is the point where Divine
>> Existence interfaces with Manifest Non-existence--although we may also
>> put it as Divine Non-Existence interfaces with Manifest Existence.  As
>> the Torah says of the Deity, "In Heaven above and in Earth below, there
>> is no other"--Nothing but the Deity; and therefore that which is not
>> Deity has no real existence.  The point of paradoxical ontology at which
>> this existence of the nonexistent is found is the closest thing to the
>> Abyss which the Kabbalah recognizes.
>
>And yet, not a single book that I am aware of, nor any person I know, nor
>any *web site* I have seen shares this opinion with you.  Don't get me
>wrong, your opinion might be quite worthy, but it's socially irrelevant
>since no recognizable society shares it.  It doesn't have a social impact
>like Da'ath = Abyss.
>
>> I note that you use the term co-creators to refer  to humankind--which I
>> agree with, seeing that it is firmly taught by the Torah and Kabbalah.
>> But I have to fault you for your insistence on reading "descending" into
>> the process of Sefirotic emanation.  Ponce does not use that term, nor
>> (in the passage you quote) any sort of directional hint.
>
>Again, I think you are in the minority with respect to your belief that
>the emanations do not occur downward.  Not that you are necessarily wrong,
>mind you, but since I'm looking at the *social harm* of building a
>civilization around a Kether-dominant paradigm, I will naturally be more
>interested in the more common beliefs in this area.  I'm again looking at
>the social phenomenon, as this is a better indicator of what message
>people receive.
>
>Some examples:
>
>http://marlowe.wimsey.com/~rshand/streams/scripts/sefirot.html
>"The ten sephirot were arranged in a rigid hierarchy, and each lower
>sephirah grew out of the one immediately above; that is, the second
>ranking sephirah grew out of the first, the third out of the second, etc.
>Thus the first sephirah had all the powers of the sephirot under him; the
>second had its own power plus all the powers of the succeeding eight, and
>so on."
>
>http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/faq.htm
>"A more appropriate characterisation of the difference between sephira is
>that of "giving" and "receiving". Kether is a sephira that only gives, and
>Malkuth is a sephira which only receives, and all other sephiroth are both
>giving and receiving, so that Binah receives from Chokhmah but gives to
>Chesed."
>
>http://annex.com/karl/karl023.htm
>"...energy flows through each tree in each world in turn. It enters each
>tree through Kether from the next world up, and departs from Malkuth into
>Kether of the next world down."
>
>http://world.std.com/~snet/tol.htm
>"Emanations begin with the Unknowable realm at the top, and emanate down
>the tree to the bottom circle, Malkuth, which represents our realm
>of physicality. "
>
>>  Are you familiar with the glyph of the ToL in
>> which the sefirot are shown as concentric circles, Keter at the center
>> and Malkuth at the outer edge? Or the reverse in which Keter is at the
>> edge and Malkuth at the center?  Where is the above and below there?
>
>Yes, I've seen these.  In these diagrams, inner and outer are understood
>to be substituted for above and below.
>
>> Indeed, the Sefer Yetzirah makes clear that Above and Below, and all the
>> six directions are themselves simply part of the scheme of Emanation.
>> If the above is rambling, I apologize; if pontificating, please kick me
>> in the shins....
>
>I think that you are describing your own unique viewpoint on these
>matters, which is of course no crime.  Unfortunately it is not relevant to
>what I'm proposing, which is that concepts like "Da'ath as an Abyss
>between Man and God" and "Kether-dominance" are psychically harmful. Most
>people see it this way, even if you don't.  Since you don't have these
>beliefs, you probably have a hard time relating to this issue.  Try to
>imagine what it would be like if you were "screwed up" in the way I
>describe... can you see some of the problems this could pose?  If so, I
>would be interested in hearing any ideas you might have for "debugging"
>such a mode of consciousness.
>
>-Peter

===============================================================

Michael L. Buxton :
>    Forgive me if I am out place, but I find it difficult to believe
>that both or either of you are at the grade or level development that
>would lead you to a serious discussion of what I know as that sephira
>(Quasi-Sephira) of Da'ath.  Please, if you can elaborate, site the
>specific area/course of study/work that has lead to this intriguing
>topic.

You're statement presupposes several things:
1.  You know anything about me.
2.  I work within a system that recognizes grades and is mapped upon
    something that has an abyss
3.  There is only one aspect of the abyss

Given that I doubt you have much knowledge of #1 and I don't adhere to an
order as in #2 and I don't think #3 is correct, your statement is a bit
moot.

I think the Abyss is far more vast than a single spot on the Tree where
Da'ath is said to reside.  I think all the "empty" spaces on the Tree are
the Abyss.  The Sephiroth are islands and the pathways are bridges between
the islands.

My concept of the abyss is most likely different than many.  I draw from an
understanding working back from the Sumerian Abzu, which I think was the
original concept of the abyss.  The AB.ZU literally means "sentient
(knowing/understanding) sea".  It was the domain of Enki, the creator of Man
and deity of science, knowledge and healing.  Far from being a place of
darkness and evil, I think it was a place of light and knowledge.  The
queen, Ereshkigal, name can perhaps be translated as Foremost Abode of the
Great Place (primary temple of the vagina of the earth as well depending
upon the vowel).

I think the abyss is only dark until we enter it an "turn on the lights".
Part of the darkness has to do with the Judeo-Christian construct of Hell.
I think Enlil, Enki's half brother and rival, became YHVH and Enki was
mapped upon what Christians think as Satan and the Abyss as Hell.  Doesn't
work for me, given the original Sumerian concepts.

As for universes.  I think that with each major life change/initiation we
change our perception of reality and hence our universes.  In this respect,
the old one is destroyed and a new one birthed.  It is not centered in what
those that work a TOL based grade system call Da'ath.

As I said, I do not work such a grade system so the point is moot.  Now it
can be said that I lack the level of attainment you see in Da'ath.  So mote
it be if you see it.  I certainly never claimed it either.

AOI
Jeff

EOF
-- 
(emailed replies may be posted); http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi; 408/2-666-SLUG
  join the esoteric syncretism in alt.magick.tyagi; http://www.abyss.com/tokus