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To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.sex,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Tantra East and West
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:51:24 -0700

49970714 aa2 Hail Satan!

om krim namah kaliya

my Mystress, :
>>> >Also, blinds aside...  Sex-magick is just really good sex that includes
>>> >mixxing and sharing sexual fluids as a sacrament,
 
the beastly dclxvi@best.com:
>>> how do you know?

my Mystress, :
>>Because after years of reading this newsgroup, and previously alt.pagan,
>>and reading various books on sex-magick and tantra, and discussing
>>sex-magick with various practitioners -- it always boils down to this
>>common denominator (regardless of various and conflicting theories and
>>methods).

so what you have said is that you know good sex and mixing and sharing
sexual fluids as a sacrament and that this is a common feature.  this
is not a summary-statement but a possible nexus-point (one which may
prove popular in 'sex magick' but I contend not so in 'tantra' by a 
broader perspective (since the latter envelopes all of one's life).


the beastly dclxvi@best.com:
>in other words, you have no experience of same. 

>I cordially invite you to shut the fuck up on subjects of which
>you know nothing.

so brutish.  I suppose she will take your meaning arightly.


>>> >s&m, b&d, role-playing, lingerie, shoes, religious or magickal
>>> >accoutrements, drugs -- whatever makes your toes and/or mind curl.  
> 
>>> these are tools, not what you are building with the tools.

>>But if you have more to say about it then put up or shut up.  Who can 
>>take seriously occultists making veiled references to superior knowledge,
>>claiming the higher initiation trump card but unwilling to attempt
>>explanation?

there is quite a bit to talk about wrt tantra that extends beyond sexuality.
it is considered by many a type of yoga, for example, and my impression is
that it functions as an integrative discipline, achieving what Jung might
call 'individuation' or Maslow's 'self-actualization'.  these are states of
intense presence and power and not developed through single experiences,
though single, well-placed rites may catalyze specific elements of the 
process.

the veiled references appear to occur for several reasons: 

	* poor understanding about a process which depends more on 
	  intuitive capacity than intellectual fortitude; 

	* social stigma attached to expressions regarding sexuality 
	  and taboo; 

	* initiation restriction as a consequence of social involvement 
	  and revelation of psychospiritual technologies and techniques; 

	* the metaphorical quality of the mystical concepts themselves, 
	  given a manifested form in practice; 

	* intentionally concealing material for the solitary discovery 
	  as this catalyzes the maturation to some degree and 
	  description blunts the experience of deriving it oneself;

	* the inadequacy of language to seriously apprehend the nature 
	  of the experience and thus constitutes an attempt to shift 
	  beyond linguistic systems when pointing to valuable techniques.

there are probably several others.  collect the whole set.


>who can take seriously dilletanti who are content to read and talk
>about things, but are unwilling to do any actual work?

'actual work' is a discernably different animal to different people,
especially when it coalesces within the context of one's life.  there
is value in attempts at expression regarding what is barely grasped.
extreme differences of knowledge-base may give the impression of
naivete where none is present.  certainty regarding the dilletantism 
of another is as much a trap as presumption of one's own potency.


>>So, what are you building with the tools?  A body of light?

>you know the techniques. do some research.

hasn't this been described a hundred times over, even here?  the
tantric experience is typically described in variation of temporal
contexts.  my favorites: short-term ego-dissolution; long-term 
personal development and power.  

on the other hand, so-called 'sex magic(k)' is provided a variety
of objectives from rudimentary thaumaturgy and the accumulation of
social power and goods to mystical attainment as described by
alchemists and others.  again see my taxonomy, which points out at
least part of the breadth of the field and the motivations and
objectives inherent to it.

my impression is that short-term technical results provide only
a modicum of understanding regarding their overall effect.  in some
measure it is valuable to assimilate not only the practical forms
but the paradigms of knowledge within which these disciplines are
described.  'plugged in' in this way the disciplines have a much
deeper and life-transforming effect -- one which may prove both
painful and liberative.  otherwise they may merely seem to be and
truly become merely entertainments or diversions.

jai kali!

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva