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Path: Supernews69!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan,talk.religion.newage Subject: Siva, Kali and Indian terms/gods Date: 9 Jul 1997 16:58:06 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 380 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5q18ie$9lo@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.227.52.9 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews69 alt.magick.tyagi:13519 alt.magick.tantra:4358 alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna:821 talk.religion.misc:303303 alt.pagan:222460 talk.religion.newage:77032 49970701 aa2 Hail Satan! Hail Siva!! om krim nama kaliya as always, I make no claims toward traditional associations, being eclectic and iconoclastic in nature. take what I say as that which I have learned from reading about the tantra of others, from my own experience and from studies with an entity I know as 'Kali'. [from private email: perm received for public posting] to the heart of it then. #>#What does "nagasiva" mean? #>...literally it is a Sanskrit word #>meaning 'siva of the nagas'. siva is an Indian deity among monks and others #>and nagas are serpentine entities of varying power and character. I notice #>in the iconography of Kali, to whom I am dedicated, that siva is typically #>covered in snakes. #...Do you also know what the snakes typically represent? snakes symbolize many things. transformative power, magical ability, sometimes the phallus, wisdom or knowledge, deceptive slyness, illusion and duplicity, initiation. #...what do they think of this siva deity? monks of India think of siva as their god, pre-eminent among ascetics, the master of magic and power (siddha), the masculine active, symbolized by the lingam or phallus, whose partner and feminine counterpart is Kali or other forms of Sakti such as Parvati or Uma, whose magical weapon is the trident, whose power animal is the bull named Nandi, who sometimes keeps the worship of Vishnu in response to Vishnu's responding worship, who with Kali are known as gods of destruction, dwelling in the cremation grounds covered in ash, in the mountain forests dancing and hemp-smeared, whose dreads are mammoth, whose sons include Ganesha or Skandha. others think of him as a demon or asura, a radical yogi with magic power out to destroy all of creation, wearing human bones, human and/or tiger skins and consuming human flesh, whose meditative eye opens and blasts the cosmos into complete dissolution! #What do the snakes represent to you? snakes - magic beings of ancient and primordial power, snakes are to me the symbol of the energies of my body and of deep consciousness, power encoiled and engaged through a harmonizing with Terra, children of the water dragon or naga.... nagas - fantastic earth spirits whose countenance and depth extend beyond the range of human comprehension, reputed to have secured the advanced instructions of the Buddha until human beings were ready to receive it and the mysteries of the mahasiddhas or great masters of yoga, often dwelling in waters deep and calm, streams, lakes, seas, in fabulous palaces. nagas serve the power of the wild and protect the ancient wisdom (tantra). #And what does the word "nagasiva" mean to you? born of naga and human, siva of the nagas straddles both worlds as a bridge and emissary, agent of transformation and clarion of the message Kali and the earth demons send forth in their agitation, compassionate and dedicated to Her, siva of the nagas lays before the feet of Kali in Her dance of final destruction, securing their eternal unification and becoming the first sacrifice to Her black angry ways, inspiring the veneration of nature and appeasing Kali's wrath, communicating the power of earth magic in exchange for sincere dedication to wild nature (Satan). #Does it describe the way you see yourself? sometimes. I have never been asked to reflect on it in this way before. yours is therefore an initiatory question. typically my focus is on Kali, not myself or siva. #Or is it something else?sometimes my epitome, the myth or psychic pattern from which my life is wrought, sometimes my reflection in a magic mirror. #Am I blabby this morning or what? given those choices, I would select 'what'. your incisive questions demonstrate a keen mind in tune with sakti. #Sorry for all the questions. I bow before you (nama) in your perfection (ste). namaste #Have a great day, you have secured it as such. thank you. tyagi (monk) =========================================================================== 49970702 aa2 Hail Satan! Hail Siva! Hail Kali! #Yes! Thank you for being such an excellent listener, Tyagi. I love going #to the heart of things and it is just what I was hoping you would do. I #appreciate your taking the time to help me find my answers here. you offer me a real self-reflection (or at least a reflection on the most exalted description in my life path via name). your ability to ask questions is more valuable than anyone's ability to answer them, as I see it. #>#...what do they think of this Siva deity? #> #>monks of India think of Siva as their god, pre-eminent among ascetics, #>the master of magic and power (siddha), the masculine active, symbolized #>by the lingam or phallus, whose partner and feminine counterpart is #>Kali or other forms of Sakti such as Parvati or Uma, # #A male god with a feminine counterpart? Cool. Would you please help me to #understand the words Sakti, Kali, Parvati and Uma? we're now approaching the limitations of my familiarity. especially by those who worship Siva-Sakti (often 'saktas' or 'saktis') the term 'sakti' which literally translates as 'power' is implied as 'the power of the god' and sometimes becomes a functionary of the specific Indian deity to which She is appendage. I would say this fairly describes Sita as Rama's 'sakti' (Rama is an avatar or manifestation of Visnu described at least in _The Ramayana_). often the various goddesses are thus taken to be emanations or specific manifestations of a central 'Sakti', a goddess who provides pairing for all the male Indian gods. there is an old story about 'Durga' (roughly 'the Great Goddess' of some Indian literature) and how the gods like Siva and Visnu and others appealed to Her to defend them, so She manifested in manifold form as their power or sakti. I don't think it is easily clarified or reconciled within the vast Indian corpus, and modern re-interpretation (of which some may have misinformed my review) seems to unify and consolidate where it may not at all be warranted. the gods of India are described by scholars at times as existing within two real traditions: the 'Greater' (or more expansive or universal) tradition which contains the Trimurti (Siva/Visnu/Brahma) and quite possibly other major thematic correlates like Durga, and the 'Lesser' or more regional tradition which varies so tremendously that it is really difficult to say anything beyond describing what any one specific village or province seems to believe about the particular god of their favor, this god perhaps having some elements in common with the described gods of the Greater tradition. thus we may have a goddess of a village or clan who will a name, like 'Bhairavi', which is regionally accurate. this goddess might may well share featuers of the goddess Kali, for example, and yet greatly divurge based on local customs and preferences. the Greater tradition is a kind of derivation from this confluence of lesser geographic expanse. for this reason people sometimes mistake the Greater for the *only* religion of India without understanding the true diversity present. note that I have never been to India, have spoken to few Indians, and am mostly relaying information I have obtained in books and films. with all that said, 'Sakti' is popularly known as 'the Goddess' among many tantrics in a sort of generic sense, sometimes equating to a kind of energy without personality (such as when Her gurus provide what they call 'saktipat' -- unsure of literal meaning -- to their chelas; or when speaking of 'kundalini', a serpentine interior energy which can be awakened and manipulated by the adept and is presumed to be one's own sakti or the specific manifestation of Sakti in the body). sometimes all preconceived 'feminine' aspects of the cosmos are identified with Sakti, in a massive polarity for saktas between Siva and Sakti as both personal entitites and dynamic components of the world. the other names I mentioned appear to be less metaphysical in their reference, deriving from Indian scripture, often regarding the consorts or wives of Siva (these are probably most often mentioned in what are called 'the Tantras', important instructions and stories, usually provided from Siva to His consort and highly regarded by Saivites -- worshippers of Siva). Parvati is usually the model housewife, Uma appears to be a more disciplined and ascetic consort who lures Siva back from His abandonment in hemp-suffused indulgence, and as far as I know, Kali is simultaneously described as paired with Siva and a goddess on Her own (Parvati and Uma appear to be rather completely Siva-associated). as the latter has Her own extensive tradition behind Her in a manner comparable if not quite so massive as that of Siva, aside from the brief and biased mention of Her below I would refer you to more reliable resources on both of them than myself, such as Western scholars of Indian religion like Kinsley or more specialized (and therefore less reliable :>) dedicants like Ramakrishna or Muktananda. #>whose magical weapon #>is the trident, whose power animal is the bull named Nandi, who sometimes #>keeps the worship of Vishnu in response to Vishnu's responding worship, # #Who is Vishnu? Vishnu (or Visnu, the s being pronounced roughly like an sh -- this is why you'll see 'Shakti/Sakti', 'Krishna/Krisna', 'Shiva/Siva', 'Vishnu/Visnu', and many other Sanskrit words acquire variety in translation) is known popularly (within at least the Greater tradition as identified by scholars of religion) as 'the Preserver', and makes up one third of what is popularly known (by monists? :>) as 'the Trimurti' along with Brahma (the Creator, not to be confused with 'brahman', which is a variable metaphysical term though it may be related) and Siva (the Destroyer). Visnu is often described as manifesting in the world as an 'avatar', and the most popular of these appear to be Rama (_The Ramayana_, possibly other scriptures) and Krisna (_The Bhagavad Gita_, and surely other scriptures). #>who with Kali are known as gods of destruction, # #What do they destroy? And why? this is a matter of some debate among the dedicated. typically the yogi or devotee/chela will describe what is destroyed as something which is an *obstacle* to the chela as a kind of gift. thus Kali is described, for example, as destroying 'demons/asuras', often understood as adversarial energies inside or outside the mind/body. sometimes the gods are said to provide a liberating destruction of the obstacle of the 'small I' or 'ego' in the sense of limited social persona. more rarely they are said to destroy ontological or metaphysical things such as one's karma (action related to moral or metaphysical condition) or even the obstacles hindering the attainment of one's desires. there are some of us who are more daring than this (or simply instructed differently by our sources for whatever reason) who will also identify the target of destruction as including items which are valued. this can range anywhere from objects to which we are too strongly attached or even the devotee hirself (Kali will kill me as I understand it), to the complete destruction of the entire cosmos (whether as prelude to a subsequent re-creation, as I prefer it, something final). you can sort of figure based on my descriptions above why it might be that the gods destroy the items described. at times it is for the benefit of the devotee, at times it is at the whim of the god, at times it is because they are pissed, as when in one story Siva is said to have calmed Kali's wrathful exuberance by laying at Her feet while if He had not done so it would have led to the destruction of all known things (the Dance of the Destruction of the Universe). it varies alot, and due to the controversy *about* destruction, perhaps you can see why. #>others think of him as a demon or asura, a radical yogi with magic power #>out to destroy all of creation, wearing human bones, human and/or tiger #>skins and consuming human flesh, whose meditative eye opens and blasts #>the cosmos into complete dissolution! # #Leave it to a man to blast away. (Hahahahahahaha. Sorry. I couldn't pass #it up.) What happens when Kali's eye opens? (When my meditative eye opens #the cosmos just seems to dissolve peacefully. ;-)) almost without except I have known Kali to be depicted with Her eye already opened. perhaps it was Her eye (kteis/yoni/vagina) opening which created all things. sometimes esoterically the 'Eye of Siva' is simultaneously inferred to describe the third eye on the forehead and the aperture of the urethra on the penis, though I'm sure this last interpretation is more controversial. #...I love water and wild things, don't you? as with all things I prefer moderation. :> too much water and I will drown. too much wildness and my life will become threatened. in general I support the restoration to uncontaminated water and as much wilderness as we can manage, even should this prove difficult and/or dangerous or costly to humans. re nagasiva and what the word means to me: #>agent of transformation and clarion of the #>message Kali and the earth demons send forth in their agitation, #>compassionate and dedicated to Her, Siva of the nagas lays before #>the feet of Kali in Her dance of final destruction, securing their #>eternal unification and becoming the first sacrifice to Her black #>angry ways, inspiring the veneration of nature and appeasing Kali's #>wrath, communicating the power of earth magic in exchange for #>sincere dedication to wild nature (Satan). # #Why is Kali angry? She is sometimes called 'the Mad Mother'. this has implications on Her emotion and for psychospiritual state, as well as the ability of the devotee to make sense of Her actions/instructions. why She is angry seems to vary greatly. typically She is described as justly upset in a battle-frenzy while defending Her devotees or Durga from the nasty asuras/demons. sometimes She is attributed anger on account of not being properly worshipped or abused in some fashion (priests not observing proper rites, monks who take Her worship too lightly, etc.). I tend to think that Kali is seen as angry because people have this perception of Terra, and especially the Earth Goddess, implying a (justifiable) adversarial relationship with their natural surroundings and the beings with whom we live. given the careless and violent attitudes of human beings, particularly of the industrial West, it is understandable that if Kali is somehow associated with the defense of the wild She may be righteously angry at the massive despoilage now taking place. this may also relate to childhood memories of experiencing maternal frustration and anger or in reflection of a female of any species protecting Her young. generally I think people (myself inclusive) may understand Her to be 'mad' in the sense of 'insane' because we have lost touch with ourselves and our surroundings to such an extent that we can neither concoct a rational explanation for nor empathize with the variety of natural events we may interpret as originating from Her will (Kali is sometimes associated fairly directly with disease, storms and other uncontrollable natural dangers as we come to perceive them, for example). #>...typically my focus is on Kali, not myself or Siva. # #Siva of the nagas' focus can be said to be on Kali too, can it not? I'm unsure of that. I have not had insight into that as yet. I have never seen description, for example, of the motivation or focus on Kali to which the Siva of nagas depicted in blatant Kali-related iconography may relate. that within the Siva-Sakti pair inclusive of Siva-Kali He is entranced by contemplation of Her is unquestioned. whether He changes relation with Her is at issue. alone typically Siva is described as much more self-absorbed (often meditatively). it would not surprise me if there were descriptions of Siva which include naga-relationship which have very little if anything to do with Kali. #>sometimes my epitome, the myth or psychic pattern from which my #>life is wrought, sometimes my reflection in a magic mirror. # #"Sometimes my reflection in a magic mirror"? What a beautiful and musical #way of putting it. I like listening in on your mind like this. It's #especially fascinating, imeo. Thanks for taking the time to reflect on my #questions and send me your thoughts. thank you for your compliments and attentions. it displays the bounty of your heart and the generosity of your spirit. #P.S. What does "om krim nama kali" mean? I am a poor translator but have intended that it convey the sense of an adulatory and magical phrase of worship to Kali. literally I would translate 'nama kali' in a manner like 'namaste', being that I bow before the perfection (or divinity) of Kali. 'om' is a cosmic word of tremendous power and popularity indicating a great many things inclusive of the creation, destruction and silence of the cosmos. 'krim' is traditionally known as a 'seed syllable' or 'bindu mantram' in association with Kali in particular. it may afford or imply a greater familiarity with the goddess or be a reflection on the center of the devotee in a manner which 'om' functions on an entirety. jai kali! tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -- (emailed replies may be posted) ------- join the AMT syncretism!!! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus ---------- call: 408/2-666-SLUG!! "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" -- "that which liberates is ignorance"
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