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From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.sex,alt.magick.sex,alt.sex.wizards,talk.religion.newage,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.polyamory,alt.magick.tantra
Subject: Sex and Neo-Tantric Gurus (was Swinging and Neo-Tantra...)
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50000321 IVom Happy Spring Equinox!

Re O'Stat :
>>>>>However, most of the 'hard core' teachers and practitioners of
>>>>>Neo-Tantra whom I have met, heard about or studied with are
>>>>>also swingers.

what do you mean by "hard core" here? like in X-rated films? ;>

Re O'Stat  Mon, 20 Mar 2000 06:18:14 GMT:
>...[neo-tantric leaders] use arguments which, in the past, were used 
>to defend swinging in order to support working with multiple partners 
>in Neo-Tantra.

could you provide some examples of the types of arguments used?

>Further, although many of the leaders I've met, studied with or heard 
>of are, in fact, swingers, only a few of them (such as Jwala and the 
>leaders of Tantra Club) publicly admit to this.
>
>...I'm not going to out those who do not wish to be outed....

>...most participants are not swingers....

>...a small number [of Neo-Tantrics] are (perhaps a greater or lesser 
>percentage than outside the Neo-Tantric community) -- most are not. 
>However, many (I can't say most because I don9t know most) Neo-Tantric 
>leaders (i.e. Teachers) are. They do not try to force their lifestyle on 
>others. In fact, it has been my experience that they often try to keep 
>swinging as separate from Neo-Tantra as people of other spiritual 
>practices try to keep their lifestyle a separate thing.

if this is true, then how did you come by the information? did they
"out" themselves to you, confiding that they were *really* involved
as a teacher within tantric groups because they liked the sex and
didn't care much about the disciplines, results, or relationships?
or was it your inference? or something else?

>I have been to numerous classes and worked with several teachers....

but you have said that these teachers to whom you refer keep their
swinging separate from that which they teach (workshops, etc.), so
how did you intersect with this data?

>...Most people who are swinging do not broadcast that they are 
>swingers. Neither do Neo-Tantric teachers. 

then how did you come to find out about it? what do you think these
teachers *themselves* thought swinging was? what did they think of
sex-obsession or sex-focus? did they equate sex with tantra? did they
see intimacy and stable relationships as somehow inimical to tantra?

>I know of one couple who, about 10 years ago, was very big in the 
>swinging lifestyle. They did not advertise it. However, they were famous 
>for writing books about taking large quantities of various vitamins and 
>other (non-psychoactive) substances.

is there anything else which characterizes, in your mind, "the
swinging lifestyle"? how do you feel that this may be at odds with
the STATED claims of neo-tantric groups and teachers, as well as
the traditional tantric schools?

>Even among Neo-Tantrics, swinging is frowned upon. So, for the 
>most part, those Neo-Tantric teachers who are involved simply 
>don't mention it.

why do you think that swinging is frowned upon in neo-tantric groups?

Re O'Stat  Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:48:51 GMT:
> 1) In my experience, most hard core Neo-Tantra teachers [have been]
>    involved in the swinging lifestyle.

'hard core' and 'swinging lifestyle' are ambiguous here, aside from
your previous comment that swinging focusses on sex and multiple
partners.

> 2) In my experience most people involved in Neo-Tantra are not involved 
>    in the swinging lifestyle.

then this is a very important consideration. what does this SAY about
the neo-tantric community that its leaders are swinging while the
whole community frowns upon it as an activity and these leaders hide
what they are doing?

> 3) I have never seen any Neo-Tantric teachers try to get students, 
>    followers, etc. involved in swinging.

so is it a habit that they can't break, something they think is
'reserved for the adept', or some kind of taboo-breaking activity?
in other words, are we talking about a facet of corruption or a
facet of expertise? does the role of neo-tantric leader somehow
require swinging as a part of its performance? or are we really
delving into the seamy underside of the New Age Sex Gurus?

> 4) However, when Neo-Tantric teachers support working with multiple 
>    partners, many use the same arguments that in the past have been 
>    used to support swinging. That does NOT mean they are supporting 
>    swinging in these arguments, only that they are using the same 
>    arguments and replacing swinging with some types of Neo-Tantric 
>    work.

I think that a distinction should be made between "working with
multiple partners to do tantra" (by whatever meaning other than a
strict 'sex=tantra' equivalence) and "swinging" as you have
defined it. my reasoning is that swinging necessarily involves
a focus on sex per se, while working with multiple partners to do
tantra may include sex as a route to doing something else (such 
as learning to let go of relationships or move more deeply into 
intimacy within them, or to strengthen one's volitional skills).

here is what I can see of the neo-tantric community in its sex-focus:

	* Sex
	  we have those who equate tantra and sex, in which case
	  it makes sense that swinging would be part of it; the URL 
	  you provided for Tantric Club in another post to this 
	  thread is a good example here

	* Renunciation
	  we have those who are looking to enhance their emotional
	  disconnection from the world (as occurs in any ascetic
	  practice: renunciation) through engaging by separating 
	  physical and personal intimacy by multiplying or making
	  more repulsive their sexual encounters; perhaps the best
	  example of an extreme here is those who somehow mix
	  the taboo or repulsive -- homosexuality, promiscuity, 
	  sex with the aged, with the diseased, with the dead, 
	  with other species, with spiritual entities like gods
	  and demons, sex involving pain and/or humiliation, 
	  consumption of human flesh, wearing of human skin as
	  garments, living in refuse heaps, living in cremation
	  grounds, etc.

	* Love
	  we have those of us who are looking to enhance our 
	  emotional depth and intimacy with the world 
	  (particularly other human beings) through engaging in 
	  conventionally intimate encounters in attentive and 
	  meditative ways; this group often mentions that there is
	  simply not enough personal TIME to multiply partnerships
	  in part because sexuality is only one part of this type
	  of relationship (or becomes redefined in a much more
	  broad way than physical sensation-seeking will allow);
	  many of the neo-tantric groups that I recently quoted
	  to the alt.magick.tantra newsgroup seemed to be examples
	  of this type of tantra

	* Religion
	  besides at time incorporating a good deal of the previous
	  groups (in part because the neo-tantric community is to
	  a great extent inspired by the traditional religious
	  tantra of India), the neo-tantric religious seem to be
	  looking for particular mystico-religious experiences or
	  states of consciousness which may be achieved through
	  the combination of ritual sex and specific mystical
	  disciplines and practices; 'Western Tantra' groups as
	  are associated with Francis King and the Hermetics, or
	  nontraditional gurus like Osho, Muktananda, and others,
	  may be good examples of these.

I would call these "types" or categories of tantra, within which
we see the broad sociological spectrum of neo-tantra. most groups
will probably qualify in some respect for more than one of these
characteristic types, though some certainly do specialize. if you
would consider any one of these to be "hard core" above the others,
please share this with us and explain why.

> ...I know of one teacher of Neo-Tantra who has switched to teaching 
> a form of Taoism and another who has switched from the system of 
> the Bihar School of Yoga to that of Osho, all within the past few 
> years. Neo-Tantra teachers may not change at the rate computers 
> change, but they do evolve.

part of the problem with the New Age community, and with the neo-
communities generally, is that they are prone to charlatanry. 
however, part of what *I* think should qualify someone for the
"hard core" characterization is duration of association with the
subject matter of their instruction, whatever it is they teach.

namaste

nagasiva
-- 
mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
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