THE ARCANE ARCHIVE
	a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.

Path: ultra.sonic.net!not-for-mail
From: catherine yronwode 
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.sex.wizards,alt.sex.magick,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: "Bosom love" experience
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:05:03 -0800
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Conflating diverging threads here...

Ingeborg wrote: 
>
> M‰na (Tzimon) wrote:
> 
> > Lester Hetzman wrote:
> > 
> > >I've noticed in the breastfeeding NGs that some women are 
> > >embarrassed when they orgasm while nursing their children. I think  
> > >that it would be natural that when the breast is suckled that this 
> > >might happen especially if the infant sucks hard enough.

Lester, most women i have discussed this with say that there is a
"right" degree of force in suckling -- suckling too hard wll hurt the
woman, suckling too gently will not stimulate the milk let-down reflex.
Given the correct degree of force, i believe that it is the RHYTHM of
the suckling, not the intensity, "hardness," or force that produces
orgasm. 

> > >It's a shame some women feel ashamed of themselves when they 
> > >experience this.

I agree. 

Back in the old days of alt.sex.wizards, before the invasion of the
sex-spam that ruined that group, there was quite a lot of discussion
about women's orgasms while nursing their children. Prurient male
fascination with this phenomenon on the one hand and conventional
condemnatory puritanical repression that raises alarms about "incest" on
the other hand have led many women to deny having had this experience,
but it is actually COMMON. I have experienced it myself and i wrote of
it frankly in usenet, which led other women to "come out of the closet"
as it were and discuss it as well. 

Nursing-induced orgasms are fairly mild on the old orgasm-o-meter and
they are most likely to occur after several months to a year of nursing,
when the mother and child have become deeply bonded and attuned to each
other's rhythms. I myself found it easiest to induce an orgasm while
nursing my daughter in a rocking chair because the rhythmic movement of
the chair helped to relax me. My partner at the time, Peter Yronwode,
could also induce orgasm in  me quite easily by suckling on me without
genital stimulation -- which, because he was my adult male partner, i
found more "socially acceptable" and was willing to talk about with
friends. To my surprise, i found that even among my felllow
back-to-the-land hippies, the relatively mild subject of adult men
suckling at the breasts of their lactating female partners was as taboo
as the subject of suckling-induced female orgasms! No wonder the ending
to John Steinbeck's novel "The Grapes of Wrath" was Bowdlerized when
adapted to film!!!

> > Can you explain how this relates to Tantra?

Tzimon, i know that there is some resistance to the subject of female
breast-centered pleasure (whether orgasmic or sub-orgasmic) from those
trained in the Vedic tantra methods, but in Taoist sex alchemy texts,
quite a bit of reference is made to "cultivating the female chi" in the
breasts, and as i mentioned earlier in this thread, George Washington
Savory, an early 20th century American karezza practitioner, devoted
quite a bit of text to it as well, under the name "bosom love."  
Douglas While's recent collection of Chinese sex alchemy classics, "The
Art of the Bed Chamber," contains several texts which explicate the
ancient Chinese take on this; most notable is a text designed for
celibate nuns (Ingeborg, take note!) in which daily rotational
self-massage of the breasts is described as a "solo practice" for women
seeking "immortality" through sex-mysticism. 

So, rephrasing your question, and leaving strictly interpreted Vedic
tantra out of the picture: What does the fact that women can and do have
orgasms while being suckled -- in the absense of direct genital
stimulation -- have to do with sacred sex practices, particularly Taoist
sex alchemy and karezza? 

The answer, i believe, is that ANY form of sexual stimulation, if
engaged in a mindful, meditative, devotional, dedicatory way, can become
-- or has in some culture become or by individual somewhere has been
considered to be -- a royal road to bhaktic, mystical, transcendent
experience.  The results of "bosom love" and Taoist-style
breast-suckling and breast-massage are as well deserving of such high
titles and warrants as "samadhi" and "union with the divine" as any
other form of maithuna.  

[snip discussion of the nature of the "elixir" or "fluid" and tyagi's
statement that it is "real" but not "material"]

> I'd agree there too, having discovered the effects of "bosom love" on 
> my own years ago, when I still had a partner.  (This was before I had 
> begun exploring the idea of sex magic, too!)  I knew very well that I 
> couldn't have been lactating (the man was "fixed", so I could safely 
> rule out pregnancy)...and that no physical fluid was coming from my 
> breasts when he suckled them.  Still, there was the unmistakable 
> sensation of *something* flowing between us, giving him energy.

Thanks for the validation, Ingeborg. That's exactly how i perceive it
too. 

> > > > Furthermore, i have noticed that women who have never suckled a 
> > > > baby are divided in their reactions to being suckled. A few find 
> > > > it pleasurable, most do not; some even consider it painful. 
> > > > However, virtually every woman i know who has nursed a child is 
> > > > not only comfortable with being suckled but actively pleasured 
> > > > by it. [...] Note that this evidence flatly contradicts the 
> > > > Taoist text above that promotes the idea that only null-parous 
> > > > women are suitable subjects for production of the "elixir."
 
> Well...my own situation seems to *confirm* the Taoist view, as I've 
> never even had children (and never hope to, gods willing!).  Still, I 
> may well be an exception to the rule.  

I don't think you are an exception; as i said, my experience is that
null-parous women are divided on this issue, perhaps 50-50. What i meant
by saying that the Taoist text was contradicted was that multi-parous
women are almost 100% amenable to mystical sexual delirium through
suckling, therefore, for the Taoists to consider them "nsuitable" seemed
sexist, base, and counter-intuitive. 

> > > > What may be the biological basis of this metaphysical 
> > > > experience? 

> > > > When a woman's breast is suckled, the "milk let-down reflex" is 
> > > > engaged, whether or not she is lactating. This is experienced by 
> > > > the woman as arush of pleasure that is not specifically genital 
> > > > but is definitely sexual in the broader sense, and may engage 
> > > > intense genital feelings at certain times -- for instance, if 
> > > > the man is fingering her genitals or fucking her at the same
> > > > time as he suckles.
> 
> One of my former partners joked that this possible triggering of 
> genital feeling happened by "remote control".  I don't know if he just 
> psyched me into experiencing it, but I certainly did.  Now, there may 
> not be a direct nerve connection between the two areas, but arousal *
> usually* isn't limited to one place unless a partner has nerve damage!

I'm sorry i didn't make myself clearer in writing the above, Ingeborg.
The "remote control" you mention (i love this phrase!) is easily
explained through biological models: In order for a person of either sex
to experience an orgasm, a wave of the hormone oxytocin must be
released. This sets off the contractile phase of the orgasm. (Side-note:
Oxytocin must also be released in order for a woman to give birth; it
fuels the uterine contractions that expel the child from the womb. When
a woman is slow in giving birth, she may be given an injection of
oxytocin "to speed up labour.")

Since oxytocin works best in an estrogen-rich environment, it stands to
reason that it produces its greatest effects upon women, who routinely
maintain a higher estrogen level in the blood than men do. Thus the
small amount of oxytocin released by stimulating the breasts of a woman
may be enough, when magnified by her estrogen, to induce orgasm or
near-orgasm. Men who know women well are usually quite capable at
running this "remote control" effect on their female partners, with or
without genital stimulation. 

When genital stimulation is added to the mix, events escalate. In
grossly physical terms, the conventional wisdom has it that the "added
stimulation" of sucking while fucking "drives women wild" and produces
orgasm -- but the subtler biochemical model explains the situation far
better: The woman being suckled is simply too flooded with oxytocin by
breast stimulation to easily avoid orgasm when she is genitally
stimulated, even in a minor way. This can work both for and against
mystical sexuality, especially if orgasm control or orgasm avoidance are
part of the teachings one follows. To use myself as an example, at
certain times i find it very difficult to control my orgasm response --
to delay or bypass orgasm, that is -- if i am engaing in intercourse
while i am being suckled. My partner knows that he must combine breast
stimulation and genital stimulation wisely if he wishes to keep me at
the edge and not send me flying over.

> > > > The suckling also stimulates oxytocin in her
> > > > adult male partner or her child, which promotes bonding -- hence 
> > > > we can see the basis for Savory's belief that "bosom love" aids 
> > > > monogamy.
> 
> Mmmm hmmm.  Ever wonder why some couples use the same language they 
> would use to a young child, when they're being affectionate with each 
> other?  (Even calling a loved one "baby"--or "little you", as the 
> Swedes would say--fits into that category.)  I'm not 100% sure that 
> this is universal; but IF it is, a biological basis probably exists.

I think baby-naming of the loved one is near-universal. It is also, on
the face of it, charmingly ridiculous -- especially when the adult male
is six foot four inches tall and his lover is a diminutive five foot
three! Still, this impulse is so strong that it even occurs in
devotionary poetry adressed to divinities and in the special emphasis
placed on the baby-forms of certain deities, such as Baby Jesus, Baby
Krishna, and so forth. Such baby-form gods appeal most to women, of
course, although they have their male devotees, too. (I just LOVE L'il
Siva -- he's so kee-yu-u-u-u-ute!) 

> > > > More centrally to the tantric experience, the rhythmic jaw  
> > > > movements of suckling produce a rush of the hormone serotonin in 
> > > > the suckler  -- and serotonin increases feelings of well-being > > > > > and joy.
> 
> Not to sound TOO irreverent, but "Om" and "Ummmm" aren't so far apart; 
> like "baby talk" between lovers, the choice of that syllable as sacred 
> may be rooted in our biology.  (You can't say much else with a 
> mouthful of nipple!)

LOL! And, no, that is NOT too irreverent for me! 

catherine (they don't call her Kali-MA for nothin') yronwode

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