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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.tyagi
Subject: Re: A definition please...
Date: 15 Jul 1998 23:33:48 -0700
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49980715 aa3 Hail Satan!

"Deva"  RE 'less sublime ends of human life':
# Artha and kama are "less sublime" because they deal with material 
# things, and the end-goal of Tantra is detachment from the material 
# in favor of the transcendant.

	four fruits     The four ends of human pursuit,
	namely, dharma (righteousness), artha (wealth),
	kama (fulfilment of desire), and moksha
	(liberation).
	-----------------------------------------------
	 M, Glossary to The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
	_______________________________________________

there are many senses for these terms, depending on the tradition
and perspective of the speaker.  placed within a variety of
context, artha could equate to realization that all objects are
the possession of Shakti, thus becoming ultimately sublime to one
who may find succor in Her bosom.  the realization that love is
the lila of the Goddess could also become ultimately sublime in
the perfect embrace of adepts.  where the four fold into one,
none need become inferior or superior.
 
is there one "end-goal of Tantra"?  is detachment from the
material the same as liberation from attachment to all things?
is the transcendant an object, an experience or a fantasy?


# ...This *is* the direction of Tantra... the overcoming of
# attachment is a major goal of this system.  

'this system' implies a singular construct, rather than several.
now you say 'a major goal' rather than 'the end-goal'.  is your
'overcoming of attachment' different than 'detachment from the
material'?  probably you mean them to be equivalent.


# The goal being union with the divine, what need would there be 
# for lust and money having achieved that end?

if kama and artha are lust and money, then why aren't dharma
and moksha duty and license?  is there an end to be achieved 
when speaking of "union with the divine"?


# Attaining these things, even, leads to a condition where there 
# is always a fear of losing them again.  Wealth runs out, lovers 
# come and go, etc.  Union with Shiva/Shakti, once attained, is 
# eternal, and thus the end of all fear and suffering.  

unless it is like a tide, rushing in, out, leaving a coating,
having touched briefly but not completely.  no doubt you would
say this is not 'true union'.  I would agree if so.


# ...the definition given *doesn't* say that wealth or the 
# fulfilment [of] desires is wrong, and indeed the Tantras 
# themselves often give directions for attaining these things.  
# However, this is never the *final* goal of ...Tantra.

it is the final goal of some people's tantra, this much seems certain.  


also

"Deva" :
#  ...if [cat] considers the four common aims of life on par with the
#  achievement of Union, then she's missed the point of Tantra....

unless through this "Union" they are somehow sacralized, revealed
as beautiful and perfect motivations and activities of the gods.
is there only one "point" of tantra?


RE putting such a claim in a FAQ:
# ...the weight of at least 1200 years of written source material 
# on the subject would be in disagreement with the FAQ.

such heavy weight, such binding tradition, such impervious truth.


# "less sublime" simply means "held in less esteem", and not
# "bad".  Nothing in Tantra says that wealth, love, etc., are bad 
# things...  only that at some point it's necessary to overcome 
# the specific attachment to them in favor of transcending these 
# things... which the Tantra holds amount to a sort of limited 
# liberation for a specific problem, a band-aid solution if you 
# will, and ephemeral in the extreme.  None of them are viewed
# as being liberating in and of themselves... moksha is achieved 
# through union.

and so, Shakti, I tell you, through this very Lingam shall you
find your liberation, and none other, since it contains the key
to your being and consciousness.  there are those who shall tell
you all manner of mystifications, such as that liberation is
obtained through union, or through intensity of experience, or
through ascetics, or spells.  but my truth is not hidden by any
of these abstractions, instead may you find me before you at all
times, in your power and glory, joined together as we are without 
beginning or ending, obscured and revealed in the dance of our love.
 
  
#  I'd also caution that, in visiting her website and paging 
# through the bibliography, I didn't see any source material 
# there... only Western interpretations of it, some of which 
# are quite dubious in nature.

nature is by character dubious of human constructions. 
(that was a joke). :>

nagasiva

-- 
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); 408/2-666-SLUG
cc me replies; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi