a cache of usenet and other text files pertaining
to occult, mystical, and spiritual subjects.


Learning Trad or Neo Tantra

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc
From: (nagasiva yronwode)
Subject: Re: Learning Trad or Neo Tantra (was Question....)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:07:32 GMT

50000320 IVom

Re O'Stat:
>>Tantric practices may produce "sidhis," magic powers, in some
>>practitioners. This are considered to be a hindrance to spiritual
>>development. IMHO, however, if you do not get caught up in them and
>>leave the spiritual path, they can be quite remarkable. In other
>>words, they can be developed and used, although that is not the
>>intent of Traditional Tantra.

mdhjwh :
>I am not sure what you are implying with the phrase ' get caught up in them'.

while not speaking for Re O'Stat, I think it is a rather common presumption
in the yogic community that magical powers are both an offshoot of and a
detour from mystical development. I would be surprised if SYDA did not warn
against becoming obsessed with their development as a kind of competition,
even if they do consider them to be evidence of mystical development (to
address what sri catyananda has said in possible contrast in another part
of this thread).

>My experience is that sihdha used for personal advantage, or the control of
>others, lead to ego inflation/focus and hence deviation from a higher path.

typically use of these powers at all is considered dangerous or to be a
kind of distraction from mystical development. whether this is, in fact,
true, or whether instead obsession with siddhis is a symptom of people 
who DO go over the edge or are prone to egotism, is not entirely clear 
to me. as others have said in this thread, doing things for personal
advantage is not uncommon, but it is not a clear indicator of spiritual

>It's a temptation many cannot resist. Some practitioners have claimed that
>siddhis can be directed without conscious intent - I cannot imagine how this

>could be accomplished .

subconscious motivation directing powers made available through mystical
disciplines. perhaps a type of 'fallout' or 'byproduct' of being immature
or 'unready' for spiritual development (almost as if without the 
"complete" development provided by popular or reputable teachers in their
guidance you have misshapen persons and unbalanced unconscious leakage).

>If influencing others for good or ill is an issue then an underlying moral code
>(or lack of one) is involved, we are in the territory of alt.magick.ethics.
>(At such times the fragmentation of issues on these news groups appears to
>be excessive but probably necessary).

true, the PRACTICAL problems with these activities or approaches are the
issues we are more interested in discussing. there are countless
contentions about what some god wants. this is one of the things that I
appreciate about many Buddhists with whom I've interacted: they maintain
that if it doesn't work, it ought be dispensed with.

>>Unfortunately, such devotion to a Guru can lead to a personality cult attitude
>>where quoting the Guru becomes more important than understanding oneself.

a LOVELY distinction!

>>This, IMO, is a fault of the Guru and takes the Guru's teachings out of the
>>realm of Tantra and into the realm of gaining power over others.

it seems too extreme to me to blame the guru for the chela's behaviour,
but if more people took this attitude and went to the guru regarding
their charge's antics (where possible of course), perhaps we'd have 
less shinanigans.

>If blind devotion to the Guru occurs after the Guru's death then the 
>question of 'gaining power over others.' may or may not not be the 

some gurus have actively tried to keep such a thing like this from
happening. Sri Ramana Maharshi, for example, has the clearest record
that I've yet seen of trying to avoid the franchisement of his person
after his death into personality-cultism. it fits EXTREMELY well with
his general theoretical expressions, and therefore recommends him to
me as of greater integrity and value as an inspired master.


-- ; ; 
emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired

The Arcane Archive is copyright by the authors cited.
Send comments to the Arcane Archivist:

Did you like what you read here? Find it useful?
Then please click on the Paypal Secure Server logo and make a small
donation to the site maintainer for the creation and upkeep of this site.

The ARCANE ARCHIVE is a large domain,
organized into a number of sub-directories,
each dealing with a different branch of
religion, mysticism, occultism, or esoteric knowledge.
Here are the major ARCANE ARCHIVE directories you can visit:
interdisciplinary: geometry, natural proportion, ratio, archaeoastronomy
mysticism: enlightenment, self-realization, trance, meditation, consciousness
occultism: divination, hermeticism, amulets, sigils, magick, witchcraft, spells
religion: buddhism, christianity, hinduism, islam, judaism, taoism, wicca, voodoo
societies and fraternal orders: freemasonry, golden dawn, rosicrucians, etc.


There are thousands of web pages at the ARCANE ARCHIVE. You can use ATOMZ.COM
to search for a single word (like witchcraft, hoodoo, pagan, or magic) or an
exact phrase (like Kwan Yin, golden ratio, or book of shadows):

Search For:
Match:  Any word All words Exact phrase


Southern Spirits: 19th and 20th century accounts of hoodoo, including slave narratives & interviews
Hoodoo in Theory and Practice by cat yronwode: an introduction to African-American rootwork
Lucky W Amulet Archive by cat yronwode: an online museum of worldwide talismans and charms
Sacred Sex: essays and articles on tantra yoga, neo-tantra, karezza, sex magic, and sex worship
Sacred Landscape: essays and articles on archaeoastronomy, sacred architecture, and sacred geometry
Lucky Mojo Forum: practitioners answer queries on conjure; sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.
Herb Magic: illustrated descriptions of magic herbs with free spells, recipes, and an ordering option
Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers: ethical diviners and hoodoo spell-casters
Freemasonry for Women by cat yronwode: a history of mixed-gender Freemasonic lodges
Missionary Independent Spiritual Church: spirit-led, inter-faith, the Smallest Church in the World
Satan Service Org: an archive presenting the theory, practice, and history of Satanism and Satanists
Gospel of Satan: the story of Jesus and the angels, from the perspective of the God of this World
Lucky Mojo Usenet FAQ Archive: FAQs and REFs for occult and magical usenet newsgroups
Candles and Curios: essays and articles on traditional African American conjure and folk magic
Aleister Crowley Text Archive: a multitude of texts by an early 20th century ceremonial occultist
Spiritual Spells: lessons in folk magic and spell casting from an eclectic Wiccan perspective
The Mystic Tea Room: divination by reading tea-leaves, with a museum of antique fortune telling cups
Yronwode Institution for the Preservation and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
Yronwode Home: personal pages of catherine yronwode and nagasiva yronwode, magical archivists
Lucky Mojo Magic Spells Archives: love spells, money spells, luck spells, protection spells, etc.
      Free Love Spell Archive: love spells, attraction spells, sex magick, romance spells, and lust spells
      Free Money Spell Archive: money spells, prosperity spells, and wealth spells for job and business
      Free Protection Spell Archive: protection spells against witchcraft, jinxes, hexes, and the evil eye
      Free Gambling Luck Spell Archive: lucky gambling spells for the lottery, casinos, and races