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Learning Trad or Neo Tantra

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.sexuality,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc
From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode)
Subject: Re: Learning Trad or Neo Tantra (was Question....)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:07:32 GMT

50000320 IVom

Re O'Stat:
>>Tantric practices may produce "sidhis," magic powers, in some
>>practitioners. This are considered to be a hindrance to spiritual
>>development. IMHO, however, if you do not get caught up in them and
>>leave the spiritual path, they can be quite remarkable. In other
>>words, they can be developed and used, although that is not the
>>intent of Traditional Tantra.

mdhjwh :
>I am not sure what you are implying with the phrase ' get caught up in them'.

while not speaking for Re O'Stat, I think it is a rather common presumption
in the yogic community that magical powers are both an offshoot of and a
detour from mystical development. I would be surprised if SYDA did not warn
against becoming obsessed with their development as a kind of competition,
even if they do consider them to be evidence of mystical development (to
address what sri catyananda has said in possible contrast in another part
of this thread).

>My experience is that sihdha used for personal advantage, or the control of
>others, lead to ego inflation/focus and hence deviation from a higher path.

typically use of these powers at all is considered dangerous or to be a
kind of distraction from mystical development. whether this is, in fact,
true, or whether instead obsession with siddhis is a symptom of people 
who DO go over the edge or are prone to egotism, is not entirely clear 
to me. as others have said in this thread, doing things for personal
advantage is not uncommon, but it is not a clear indicator of spiritual
maturity.

>It's a temptation many cannot resist. Some practitioners have claimed that
>siddhis can be directed without conscious intent - I cannot imagine how this

>could be accomplished .

subconscious motivation directing powers made available through mystical
disciplines. perhaps a type of 'fallout' or 'byproduct' of being immature
or 'unready' for spiritual development (almost as if without the 
"complete" development provided by popular or reputable teachers in their
guidance you have misshapen persons and unbalanced unconscious leakage).

>If influencing others for good or ill is an issue then an underlying moral code
>(or lack of one) is involved, we are in the territory of alt.magick.ethics.
>(At such times the fragmentation of issues on these news groups appears to
>be excessive but probably necessary).

true, the PRACTICAL problems with these activities or approaches are the
issues we are more interested in discussing. there are countless
contentions about what some god wants. this is one of the things that I
appreciate about many Buddhists with whom I've interacted: they maintain
that if it doesn't work, it ought be dispensed with.

>>Unfortunately, such devotion to a Guru can lead to a personality cult attitude
>>where quoting the Guru becomes more important than understanding oneself.

a LOVELY distinction!

>>This, IMO, is a fault of the Guru and takes the Guru's teachings out of the
>>realm of Tantra and into the realm of gaining power over others.

it seems too extreme to me to blame the guru for the chela's behaviour,
but if more people took this attitude and went to the guru regarding
their charge's antics (where possible of course), perhaps we'd have 
less shinanigans.

>If blind devotion to the Guru occurs after the Guru's death then the 
>question of 'gaining power over others.' may or may not not be the 
>case....

some gurus have actively tried to keep such a thing like this from
happening. Sri Ramana Maharshi, for example, has the clearest record
that I've yet seen of trying to avoid the franchisement of his person
after his death into personality-cultism. it fits EXTREMELY well with
his general theoretical expressions, and therefore recommends him to
me as of greater integrity and value as an inspired master.

namaste

nagasiva
-- 
mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ 
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