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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva/TOKUS)
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,talk.religion.misc,alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna,alt.religion,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Satanism, Kali, Demons
Date: 29 Feb 1996 13:09:08 -0800
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kaliyuga
49960229 eris bday; responding to post previous

~from: jody  quoting me.

|>|What practices do you follow in worship of wrathful gods, and why?
 
|> ...several altars to various wrathful gods, ...dedicated to Kali ...
|>...sacrifices of incense, candles ...noxious substance[s]...
|>...chant Her name ...some personal disciplines ...network information 
|>about Her and other wrathful gods and find it to be very rewarding.

|My understanding of Satanism is limited.  

Thanks for making this plain at the start.


|I understand, at least from the perspective of Christianity, that Satan 
|is a demon.  

Christian perspective, yes, though only of a particular variety.  To some
Satan is a Fallen Angel, rather than a true Demon.  To others there is
little difference between 'angels' and 'demons' except that they are
'spiritual entities' what are either 'on my side' or 'against me',
respectively.  There are even neutral spirits, (see Spiritualism esp.
wrt ancestors and deadplane).


|I also understand that those who practice Satanism might not have the 
|slightest degree of interest in the supposed being known as Satan.

Well, I don't think this is usually true, though whether they actually
believe in a big horned dude that lives in the fires of hell or not,
they do seem to spend a great deal of time discussing the term 'satan'
and using the term 'Satanism' to describe their activities, which do
sometimes include ritual mediation of 'Satan, the Ruler of the World'.

How to interpret this is beyond my present ability to assess, since I
have not yet witnessed these supposed ceremonies.  I have been involved
with possessory work around me at various times, and I actually found
it to be very rewording, if at times frustrating.  Occasionally one of
the horses (possessees) would let the possession go to their heads,
so there was even a system of 'rescue squads' for large rites to make
sure this didn't happen to unsuspecting victims.


|It is important to note that Kali is wrathful toward demons *only*.  
|There are no examples that I know of to indicate that Kali is wrathful 
|toward any other beings *except* demons.

Uh huh.  I remember a vision given to the saint Ramakrishna of Kali,
who came out of the Ganges and bore a child, which she then proceeded
to breast-feed and later consume entirely.  Kali is known in many
regions of India in association with diseases and other natural
calamities.  It is not always the case that She is merely a 'Good
Guardian'.  Some believe Her to be the cause of these things too,
some also associate Her with their remedies.


|It is generally accepted that the demons of Hindu mythology, known as
|asuras, usually represent the negative qualities associated with ignorance
|of Brahman and other ego-dense perceptions and behaviors.

I'm not sure what I am but an ego.


|It would be a mistake (IMHO) to project the belief that Kali exhibits 
|wrathful tendencies the way a Thor, Zeus, or Lucifer might.

I don't know.  Some of the Newage versions of the goddess seem to be
rather frenzied and brutal.  There is a great story of Kali about to
destroy the entire universe with her dance of destruction.  Various
stories have Siva conniving/seducing Her out of it to all our delight.

She is not a benign force to all Her devotees.  I have spoken to some of
these myself via computer and many see a diversity of sides to this Great
Mother goddess.


|It is true that the Thugee cult regarded their victims as sacrifices to Kali.
|It is also true that the Thugee were wrathful toward their victims, usually
|well-off Brahmin travelers.  While the Thugee phenomenon amounted to a revolt
|against the Aryan cultural repression on the lower castes, there is nowhere
|that I am aware of where such behavior is sanctioned as being appropriate for
|the devotees of Kali.

Aside from Hollywood's moneyboxes. ;>


|It is common to conceive of Kali as wrathful due to Her iconography, which
|may appear as such to some.  It should be noted that the head and arms that
|hang on Her body are those of asuras She has vanquished in battle, even
|though these items come to represent more (the severed ego, the sanskrit 
|alphabet) when associated with Her.

I must say I've seen some drawings of the asuras and know of the animal-
like qualities.  Many of the paintings/drawings I've seen of Kali (some
of which hang in the temple here) do not present the head they are
holding as asura-like in the slightest.  Perhaps these are unusual or
odd, and yet I am reasonably assured they are from India and I doubt that
they were overly difficult to procure.


|Of course it is entirely up to the devotee as to which qualities he/she
|wishes to project on their Ishta Devata.  

I'm so glad you said this.  It is something which endears me to you over
and over and why I think we shall always get along well.  I agree very
strongly and will sometimes argue toward extremity that which I have
seen to be overlooked.


|I simply want to state that these
|qualities as they exist in the Hindu literature do *not* include wrathful
|tendencies other than that toward the various asuras encountered during
|various episodes in the Puranas.

In Hindu literature.  Ok.  I wonder how much this differs in Indian
religion generally and in various artforms as they enter into Western
culture (Neopagans and art-nouveau especially).  There are some mythos
which have Her eating up elephants and anything getting into Her Way.
Lots of room for interpretation here.

nagasiva (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com)
--------

This time I shall devour Thee utterly, Mother Kali!
For I was born under an evil star,
And one so born becomes, they say, the eater of his mother,
Thou must devour me first, or I myself shall eat Thee up;
One or the other it must be.

I shall besmear my hands with black, and with black my face;
With black I shall besmear the whole of my body.
And when Death seizes me, with black I shall besmear his face.
O Mother, I shall eat Thee up but not digest Thee,
I shall install thee in my heart
And make Thee offerings with my mind.

	--Ramprasad

jody : alt.fan.kali.astarte.inanna
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